Hypermobility Then and Now | Episode 200

[ep200 Intro): [00:00:00] Congratulations, Dr. Bluestein. Happy 200th episode. That's really a phenomenal feat, and I know I'm completely biased, but I would certainly say that this platform is a very much needed exercise in educating providers and patients in the community of Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Thank you so much for what you do.

Congratulations, Linda. This 200th episode of Bendy Bodies is a huge achievement and a tremendous milestone for the Ehlers-Danlos and hypermobility community. You have not only created an extraordinary platform and a vital resource for the medical community, but you've also provided an invaluable gift and voice to those who have long sought representation.

And your work, your dedication, and impact are truly outstanding, and I'm so grateful to be part of it. Congratulations again. Congratulations, Dr. Bluestein and the entire team at Bendy Bodies. What a milestone. [00:01:00] Your podcast is so important. It is the number one podcast that I refer my hypermobile folks to.

It is a free resource that leads people to discovery, to next steps, to experts in the field, and creates an incredible community all around the topic of hypermobility and beyond. I can't wait to see what you're gonna do with your next 200 episodes. Thank you for being there for us. 200 episodes. Wow.

Congratulations, Dr. Bluestein. The Bendy Bodies podcast has absolutely changed the world for those of us with EDS and those of us who care about EDS. Thank you for everything that you do. Congratulations on the success of the podcast, and thank you for everything that I know you will continue to do for people like me with Bendy Bodies.

It has been an honor to be on your show, and I look forward to seeing what's next. Congratulations to Bendy Bodies on an incredible 200 episodes. What [00:02:00] began as a podcast has become a powerful voice for the EDS and HSD community, bringing education, validation, connection, and hope to people around the world.

So thank you for amplifying lived experience and reminding so many that they are never alone.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome back to the Bendy Bodies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Linda Bluestein, the Hypermobility MD, a Mayo Clinic-trained physician specializing in Ehlers-Danlos syndromes, hypermobility spectrum disorders, and related conditions. And today is a very special episode because this is episode 200. When Bendy Bodies first began, I had the joy of starting this podcast with my original co-host, Jennifer Milner, a dance medicine specialist who has been such an important part of this work from the very beginning.

For this milestone episode, I could not think of a better way to [00:03:00] celebrate than by bringing Jennifer back, along with our very first guest, Dr. Moira McCormick. Moira brings a rare and powerful combination of lived experience, clinical expertise, and research. She was a professional dancer with the Royal Ballet, went on to become a chartered physiotherapist and dance health specialist, and was one of the early researchers helping bring attention to joint hypermobility in dancers, with published work on the topic dating back to 2004.

Jennifer Milner: Since we first interviewed her in 2020, Moira has also earned her PhD through University College London. Her doctoral research, supported by the Rudolf Nureyev Foundation, developed the first ballet-specific, reliable musculoskeletal profiling tool designed for vocational school auditions. While her research focuses on dancers, the questions beyond it matter far beyond the dance world.

How do we identify physical risk earlier? How do we distinguish flexibility from control? And how do we help people with highly mobile bodies build strength, stability, [00:04:00] and resilience instead of simply being told they are just flexible? In this conversation, we come full circle. We'll reflect on where Bendy Bodies started, how the field of hypermobility has evolved over the past 20 years, and what Moira has seen change since her early publications in 2004.

We'll also talk about what still needs to change, not just for dancers, but for anyone living in a body that is more bendy, more symptomatic, or more misunderstood than the traditional medical system knows how to handle. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: As always, this podcast is for education only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice.

Stay to the end for our hypermobility hack. Here we go.

Well, I can't believe that we are here to celebrate episode 200 of the Bendy Bodies podcast, and I could not think of any better way to celebrate than to bring back the person who helped me launch Bendy Bodies, Jennifer Milner, and the very first guest we ever had on the podcast, Dr. Moira McCormick. [00:05:00] When we recorded episode one, conversations about joint hypermobility, Ehlers-Danlos syndromes, and systemic issues in dancers were still so niche, and yet Dr.

McCormick was already one of the very first people researching hypermobility and EDS in dancers, alongside the late and deeply missed Professor Rodney Graham. I want you to fast-forward 200 episodes, and awareness has definitely exploded, but in many ways we are still scratching the surface. So today is part reunion, part reflection, part celebration, and part look toward the future.

it is so great to see you both, and thank you so much for coming back on Bendy Bodies. 

Moira McCormack: Thank you for having us. 

Jennifer Milner: Moira, it's so wonderful to have you here, and just the three original, Bendy Bodies discussers. So, well, I mean, first of all, you know, congratulations on 200 episodes. Linda, that's pretty amazing.

just to have that kind of been th- be, be on my radar since the very beginning. Watching this community grow [00:06:00] has just really been, extraordinary. It's been amazing to see it start from this and then go to this, you know? does it feel real to you? 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, it's funny 'cause it's so cool that we're all together, and obviously we just went through all of our tech stuff, and I'm thinking about how simple it was when we did that first recording, right?

We just, like... I think we were on a phone call- ... and one of us just hit record and, you know. But, so in some ways it's so great that we're able to get these higher quality recordings, and we're recording the video, and so p- people can see us, and if we're making hand gestures, as I often do, then they can f- you know, follow along that way.

But yeah, it's, it's very exciting. It's been quite a journey, and I really appreciate both of you being a part of it. 

Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. Absolutely. did you... Moira, when you joined, joined us for this conversation, we had-- we originally talked about this after, IADMS Montreal, I think, which was 2019.

Yes. And we thought, gosh, there's so much that needs to be talked about with dancers. Moira, did you ever think that this would become [00:07:00] such a, a general population, discussion, and see that it growing into what it is today with Bendy Bodies? 

Moira McCormack: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the incidence of hypermobility is so high.

We see so much of it. You walk into a studio and, you know, at least 50% of them are. And, we know so much more. We don't get, we don't get so panic-stricken. We know we've, got plenty of strategies now. We know that they make great dancers, and, it's all much more positive than it was when we first started.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's great. And Moira, for listeners who may or may not have listened to that first episode, and may not know your extraordinary background, can you tell us a little bit about your career journey? 

Moira McCormack: Yeah. I'm... Well, number one, I'm not hypermobile. a lot of people who get very, interested in hypermobility are hypermobile themselves.

I'm not at all. [00:08:00] I was working at the Royal Ballet School at, that time when I re-met, Professor Graham, and, suggested to him that we look at our population again, and look at the professional dancers, and just see what's out there compared to what he first did, many years before that at the Royal Ballet School.

And we found the incidence was high. and, we looked at the 11 to 16-year-olds, and we saw the incidence there was high. And then we went into the company and looked at the professional dancers, and it was interesting to find that as we went up the ranks, the incidence got less and less. And we put that down to probably, loss of the hypermobiles through injury.

but now [00:09:00] I think we're so much more, aware of hypermobility and how to, how to teach it. Still very difficult, and one of the main questions I get from teachers. how to rehearse it, and I think how the, healthcare teams... I think there's still a lot missing, how the healthcare teams deal with their professional dancers.

so Did all of that with Professor Graham. And then, I did go and work with the Royal Ballet Company for a very long time. and then after that, over COVID and all of that, I left and came to, University College London and started my PhD, and I started seeing, dancers here and then decided I'm gonna stay here and see the whole cross-section of dance, [00:10:00] the West End dancers, the young adolescents, the very young, 11-year-olds, even younger than that, and also the professional dancers.

So I see a, cross-section here, which is great. and, I should be doing more research, but I'm actually enjoying treating, and a lot of my treatments They're very involved because it's all to do with control, and control takes a very long time to explain, to educate, and then to, exercise, and leave the dancer with, strategies themselves, on how to manage it.

So I do find treating takes a very long time with each patient, which is, you know, phys- physical therapists want in, out, half [00:11:00] an hour. I can't do half an hour with a dancer. Has to be an hour plus, you know, to get everything done, the manual, the exercise, the technique. but I enjoy that. It's... I felt I've had a very heavy morning of doing a lot of that.

but it is, I find because I think we're understanding. You can look at a physique now, and you can just see what's missing. you know what they need to release. You know what they need to tighten up and control, and then it's into technique. But that's the big issue, certainly with me. 

Jennifer Milner: It is. It is, for sure.

And I love that you started just sort of seeing what you saw at Royal Ballet and then going into this huge looking at everybody from every point. and now you've come back down to the one-on-ones with the [00:12:00] treatments and taking what you have seen, putting it in there. You mentioned, being able to see it.

When you first started working, what patterns were you seeing that a lot of people were just missing? Like, what were the first things that you started to pick out? 

Moira McCormack: Well, it's looking at a, school full of, students or a company full of professional dancers and going, "Why is that injury incidence in that particular dancer?"

It's again and again. and that's when I, really started going, there's something very different about this physique. the injury risk is so high. And then- That's where the interest grew. And I learned through one particular dancer at, the Royal Ballet Company, whom I treated a great deal over many years.

He's now retired. and I really learned through him and his physique, and he [00:13:00] was a principal dancer working very hard, huge work ethic. And I realized, of course, that's what it takes when you're hypermobile. When you're that hypermobile, you have to work harder than anyone else. You don't take holidays, really.

it's the only way to hold it all together and keep going and increase that strength and that control and, prolong the career. So that was the-- It was really through one dancer. well, there were-- And, that was a principal dancer, and then I had another corps de ballet dancer who was just so unfortunate.

She just kept on getting injured, and of course, was unpopular with the management. she was the youngest to be taken into the com- company at seventeen, and I really felt very protective of her. [00:14:00] and so the two of those contrasting, same-- very similar physiques, but contrasting Ability to stick with it, determination, and thinking everything through was very different.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And when you talk about that the hypermobile dancers have to work harder, I would also think that they also require more rest in some ways. So what does that actually look like? 

Moira McCormack: Yeah, it's, Of course, one was a male and one was a female, different hormones, different muscle. Education, you know, going, "Okay, we've got to look at all of this.

You can work hard, but you'll have to find your, recovery time, or else it's not gonna work out. fatigue takes over." with the female, she got fatigue [00:15:00] far sooner than the male. Stamina, was definitely not at, his levels. so I still think about that and go, "What was so different?" it's also personality.

I mean, you've gotta have a personality to fight for it. if they, if you don't fight as a really, hypermobile, probably verging on Ehlers-Danlos, you, really won't, you won't make it. You've gotta think through things so intelligently and balance your day, your week, your month, your three-month, your year of performing.

and also, you can't do too much guesting. You try guesting in between, 'cause the, at the Royal Ballet, the dancers do all their set work that they're cast for, [00:16:00] and then they go out guesting. The moment that happens, the exhaustion starts to set in, and that you've gotta try and control But of course, dancers need to make money.

They've, it's a care- a short career, so they just wanna work, work, And it just doesn't, it doesn't work, it doesn't work out in the end. the injuries start to creep in, and we've seen that with a few dancers, 

Jennifer Milner: there. I appreciate what you said about one of the dancers, you thought probably had EDS, which of course, Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which leads to a whole other big group of issues as well.

So it's one thing to try to get companies to understand hypermobile dancer, needs more rest, you know, slower learning process, like all of those things. But then did you see that, that people were also resistant to the idea that the hypermobility could be more things? It could [00:17:00] involve pain, fatigue, instability, dysautonomia, GI symptoms, sort of a multisystemic illness.

did you find that as well? 

Moira McCormack: Managements don't wanna know. They just don't want to know, about, different physiques. It's, "We like you, we'll cast you, you do your work, and we don't wanna know that you're injured or off." Although certainly in this country, there is an understanding of, risk-taking and vulnerability of dancers, and they're pretty patient with, dancers who are, injured and have the backup of the healthcare team.

it's still, doesn't matter which way you look at it, it's still a black mark, and it mounts up. Those black marks mount up until someone's asking the healthcare team, "How many performances has [00:18:00] she actually done?" You know? And that's when you can see the warning signs, and where, that's where we are there to protect.

and I, I sort of look at the, whole management of the company, the school that feeds into the company. You took this young child in, you trained them up, you've got them into the professional, position. Now you've got to be patient, and you've gotta go with them. and that's where we as a healthcare team sort of stand in and say, "Okay, you know, we have to be patient here.

We have to have recovery time. this was unfortunate. Yes, it does look as if she's missed a few performances, but, we've gotta go with it, and we'll get her better again." It's a fine line, I [00:19:00] think, that we, we tread in trying to protect dancers and keep them going. 

Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. 

Moira McCormack: And they need our support.

They really do. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, they need teachers' support, and they need choreographers' support. But teachers are an awful lot better at recognizing problems and being careful with physiques. But choreographers aren't, as careful. They just want, they wanna produce their creations, and, the dancer is the instrument, and they have to go for it, or they wanna go for it.

And you might even suggest that the education of the choreographer is not there. They're often ex-dance- dancers who progress into choreography and magically forget that they were dancers when they start choreographing. It's [00:20:00] amazing how much they forget and the much, and how much they drag those dancers, which is slightly irritating for all of us in the background.

and then there are the non-dancers who are choreogra- choreographers, very creative, wonderful artists, Do they really understand the s- the stresses on the dancer and the different physiques? It's different physiques, understanding different physiques, that they, don't... They'll walk in to c- the studio where they're casting, and they'll pick out the physiques they like.

It'll often be the hypermobile ones, depending on the style that they're, of their choreography. it's, it sometimes amazes me where you look at the cast sheet and you go, "Oh, it's all the hypermobiles." [00:21:00] And they're gonna have to w- work very hard with this guy, this lady, whatever. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And when you were talking earlier about the two dancers that you were really working with a lot in your earlier, years, and one was male and one was female, I'm also thinking about the massive influence of hormones.

So the male, I'm sure, had a much higher testosterone level than the female, and so they're going to have more muscle mass and, you know, a greater ability to build muscle and some anti-inflammatory benefits from that. And also, females, if they have cycling hormones throughout the month, they're going to have, you know, varying levels of estrogen and progesterone, and that also activates mast cells and can cause them to be more lax at certain times of the month as compared to other times of the month.

Are, those things that you saw as, as well, or how did that play out? 

Moira McCormack: That's a, it's a hard one to really... Unless you follow a dancer through several months and [00:22:00] looking, and look at their, and really examine with the dancer, the fluctuations in how they perceive their flexibility or hypermobility, unless you work very hard with the dancer to try and track, some sort of theme, common theme, it's quite hard to work out whether they really have become-- they, become more lax and then they get injured.

I didn't find that, but I guess if I'd really worked with her, we might have come to some sort of conclusion. it's an in- it is still an interesting area. But with dancers, of course, their, their commitments and their choreography changes all the time. So you'd be doing Swan Lake one [00:23:00] for, maybe six weeks, but in between that, you'd be doing a chor- a contemporary piece, and then the whole thing would change, and you're onto something else.

So it-- the demands on the dancer changes, from month to month. Quite difficult to work out what it is that has, injured the, dancer, made them at risk. Is it the choreography or how are they feeling that month, or was it a hormone shift, or, it still, that still needs quite a bit of, looking at, doesn't it?

Jennifer Milner: It does. I agree. And, I think I could go down like a three-hour rabbit hole with you about like, and like how to handle choreographers and teachers and all that, but I also don't wanna lose sight of the importance of the work that you have done, and the bigger picture of hypermobility disorders as well.[00:24:00] 

I know you worked closely with the late Professor Rodney Graham, who was truly ahead of his time. what, was groundbreaking about the work that you were doing together? 

Moira McCormack: we just did that first investigation, into the 11 to the 40-year-olds. I didn't manage to do very much more with, after that with Rodney, but he held these...

He used to call it his Hypermobility Club, and we would meet every six weeks, and we'd... He'd cover different subjects with doctors and podiatrists and physios, and, and we would just enjoy, different professions coming in and talking about their research, talking about what they were, most, driven by.

and that was always refreshing, [00:25:00] to just get that, input and be aware of what other people around, were dealing with. and my, supervisor for my PhD worked very closely with Rodney as well, Jane Simmons. She was really the lead on the SPIDER, research- It's a great tool ... in- Yeah

the diagnosis, which is a, another, a great tool. So that's Jane Simmons. so always a fantastic woman, to exchange, in ideas with, learn from. and she, of course, she's hypermobile herself, and that's what dr- drove her into all of this, research. But the spider's a very... Do you use that, Linda?

Do you [00:26:00] use the, spider? 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I do. I do. I, yeah, I, yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a great tool, and it's so fascinating because for the people who are not familiar with the spider, basically you end up with, for each individual person, it looks like a spider web that, where you can s- see does this person have more of a musculoskeletal picture?

Do they have more of a neurologic picture? Is it more anxiety or, you know, mental health, or is it more GI? So, it's funny 'cause in my practice, in my clinical practice, I have patients that are so similar in so many ways, but they're so vastly different from each other. So, you know, somebody will have a really predominant, you know, gastrointestinal picture, somebody else something different.

but one thing that it's interesting that you pointed out early on about that female dancer, fatigue. Fatigue is such a huge problem for so many of these dancers and so many of people who have hypermobility, and I just recently came across an article, it was [00:27:00] published last year, about oxidative phosphorylation and how people with hypermobile EDS may have altered oxidative phosphorylation.

And we're also learning more about, like, the immune system and different levels of proteins and so many other factors that may be involved. So yeah, it's a, fascinating space, and I do love that spider tool. I think it's a very useful thing. 

Moira McCormack: Mm-hmm. 

Jennifer Milner: Linda, do you, do you as Moira was talking about, the Hypermobile Club with every six weeks with all the doctors and different people being brought in to just talk about what they were looking at and thinking about, it kind of reminded me of the Bendy Bodies podcast, and how you make such good use of, of your really smart friends and the people you admire and the work that you see that you think, "Oh, let's talk about that.

Let's bring that in." So I love seeing that sort of as a continuation or a manifestation of sort of the next step of it. [00:28:00] do you have a, Moira, do you have a, scientific or personal, anecdote that you want to share with us about, Professor Grahame? Anything that you want to share about him? 

Moira McCormack: Well, you know, I went to, his funeral and it was a small gathering of all his-- the people he's worked with, his really close friends, his family, and it was so heartwarming.

people talked about him with such huge warmth and admiration and, very emotional. It was extremely emotional. The whole, it, you know, the, this, it was quite s- quite short but very intense, and everyone [00:29:00] was saying goodbye to a really very valuable and fascinating man. and I just felt that, that said it all, how much we really loved him and, admired him and respected him for all the work that he'd put in all those years and the determination, you know, to that's what got me.

he said he fought for his patients. He fought for recognition of hypermobility and Ehlers-Danlos. these patients, these come from hi- to him from all over the world, not knowing... They knew they were sick, but they didn't know, they didn't have the diagnosis. And he f- he started to really be able to give them a good, diagnosis that they could hold [00:30:00] onto and then work with.

So, he fought for... And I thought that is the sign of a good doctor, a good clinician. You have to fight for your patients. And I feel that's what I do a lot in ballet. You know, I'm trying to tell people, "No, she's not getting injured all the time. She just needs better teaching, slower teaching, more considerate teaching.

you know, it's not her fault. It may actually be your fault." so I feel, you know, working with dancers in a professional company at a school or with several schools as I do now, you have to fight for your patients to protect them and show the way. 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah. You do. You [00:31:00] do. I, and I do believe just going back to Professor Graham, I think our community owes him a big debt of gratitude.

as you said, the, genuine energy and the love that came out at his funeral, I think is indicative of how much influence he had over so many people. and so much of what we do, within our own lanes is fighting for our clients, fighting for our patients, and fighting for them to be heard. and I love seeing it move forward in the way that you work with your patients, Moira, and, in the way that Bendy Bodies is working to tie all those different pieces of the web together for people to see and understand.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that this is the 200th episode and you are our first, very first person to talk with us. looking back on the first episode, if you remember what we talked about, was there anything that we talked about at the time that you thought was very, like, fringe or, you know, [00:32:00] extreme, and now you're like, "Oh, that's so mainstream.

Like, everybody knows that. Everybody talks about that"? 

Moira McCormack: I think just about everything we talked about in that first episode is just like, it's normal, that's natural. Yeah, we know ways to deal with that you know, but, you know, sometimes you do have the patient that you almost don't know what to do with.

I had a 14-year-old, 13, 14-year-old who doesn't want to go to-- doesn't want to do, sport at school. It's the worst thing she can imagine because it's too vigorous. It's the athletics is too hard for her. Dance is what she wants to do. That's her move, her go-to, exercise and what she really enjoys.

But we've got knee pain, we've got hip pain, we've got ankle pain, we've got back pain, and it sort of goes round and round in circles. And I just-- There's no use me giving her floor [00:33:00] exercises to do. She's not going to do them. She's 13. so we arranged with her mother to go to a gym and have a trainer at the gym, someone she likes, someone she can connect with, and he'll just take her through a couple of times a week, a, regime of, loading exercise so that she can feel things.

There's really... I h-- And then the, teacher, connect with the teacher and just go have patience. And some days she won't be-- she will-- she won't be jumping, and other days she'll be fine, and she will be jumping. and that's about the best I could do. which, you know, she's growing. Everything's against them at that age.

They're growing fast. they adore their dancing, and so you've got to keep them dancing. You can't say don't dance. [00:34:00] and, they're not built for dance anyway. She's very flexible, but, you know, she's not gonna dance in-- to any great level. But she wants to dance, so you have to keep them exercising.

They're enjoying it. and then I resorted to loading to help her. And the control comes from a very understanding, teacher, who's just gonna go with her and keep her going with everyone else. So you do get those... and of course, the mother comes too, and you search in the family, and you find, yes, it's, it is inherited.

and there were people in the background who had bad problem and musculoskeletal problems. So I'm still ... You know, e- every individual [00:35:00] that comes in is going to be different and will need different suggestions, whatever is available to them. but here in London lots is avail- a lot is available, to a young one.

So what do you do when you get those really difficult ones? Looks fairly impossible because they are in pain. and the history is just full of all of that. and the mother is looking for, a solution. a teacher has sent her looking for a solution, and it's, not gonna be easy, but you just got to keep her sort of coast- coasting along quite happily, without too many extreme, incidences.

Jennifer Milner: Yeah [00:36:00] All right. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: How do you handle that, Jen? 

Jennifer Milner: Well, I was hoping it was rhetorical. I do get a fair amount of that as well, and I was thinking about how when we had our first conversation, the idea of heavy weightlifting for, hypermobile people was pretty fringe. it's much more commonplace now to, be able to talk about strength training for any dancer.

You know, back then people were like, "Oh no, we don't wanna get too heavy of a, load." but especially for hypermobile dancers, the ones that I work with, they, their joints feel better with more than a resistance band, right? With more information feeding back into it. So I have had success putting them in strength training.

My secret weapon is my daughter is a certified strength trainer, and she's a former dancer. She's way cooler than I am, so, they love to work with her and hang out with her and, and she's all about, like, really, getting stronger. So that's one secret weapon. [00:37:00] And the other one that I've been going to a lot more recently is, when they have a lot of aches and pains, i- is trying to find ways to distract the nervous system.

like yesterday, I have a dancer who has a really high response to pain. She feels it a lot. She has, an ankle sprain, two ankle sprains in the same ankle that are relatively fresh still, and trying to be able to move her ankle when she's distracted from the pain, she gets a lot more pain-free range of motion.

But when, she's reminded of it, she feels it. So I stick googly eyes, little stickers that are like the googly eyes. I stick them onto her anterior tibialis, like up, up towards the origin, and it's distracting enough on her skin that her anterior tibialis starts to relax, and she has a bigger range of motion.

And she's like, "What? Hey." but I've found that trying to distract their nervous system [00:38:00] and distract their senses, is helpful when they have those aches and pains. I know it sounds completely weird, but it really works. 

Moira McCormack: At what age is this child? 

Jennifer Milner: she is, 14. She is 14. My younger ones I do a lot more sensory work with, because my younger ones often have, if they're hypermobile, they have, some neurodivergency as well.

So my younger ones will do a lot of rolling on the floor, rolling the ball over the body, touching and stuff. But yeah, through that whole age, sensory really helps. 

Moira McCormack: Well, you're lucky to have a daughter who is an ex-dancer, who is a strength trainer. Because I wish she was over here, because, you know, we don't-- we have plenty of Pilates, good Pilates trainers, but it's, hard to find, you know, someone who's going to understand, a dancer, you know, immediately.

Someone who's going to understand a young dancer, a child, [00:39:00] so that, that is difficult f- to find. It's even difficult to find at the ballet schools where they're employed, who really, you know, there's, where there's young men I think sometimes they can't find a, job in sport, and so they go, "I'll try dance."

And so they go into dance. But, you know, you've really got to understand the body in front of you. You've gotta ... You know, as a strength trainer, you've got to, you've almost got to be able to diagnose. You've gotta look at that physique, understand it, assess it very carefully, look for where the weaknesses are, and then design, a program for that particular physique.

I find that quite difficult to find someone who really does that. Instead, it's a recipe. It's just a, "This is what we do for this. This is what we do for that." And I feel no dancer does well with just a recipe. It is an individual and [00:40:00] a individual physique you're, dealing with. So I find, you know, I'd love to find a female, strength trainer who understands dance technique and understands young bodies.

Jennifer Milner: Well, I'll send my daughter out to you sometime. 

Moira McCormack: Thank you. Please. 

Jennifer Milner: She would love it. 

Moira McCormack: can she come and visit? 

Jennifer Milner: It's, great having someone like that because she also loves the idea that, she has a voice in the dance world, so she can help them mentally and emotionally as well with how they do strength training.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Before we take a quick break, I wanted to say that, I, love what both of you are saying and, doing. And, when I'm working with a dancer, or a non-dancer, I use my p- men's PMMS, which I know Jen has heard, like, ad nauseam. so she probably knows what all of those letters stand for without my, even going, through it.

But, the movement piece, I mean, the first M stands for movement, because that is so critically [00:41:00] important. And I totally agree about, you know, building muscle and doing strength training, and that's been pivotal for me over this past year. And then I also work with them on supplements, medications, looking at their nutrition.

Exactly what you said, Jen, about the nervous system, because sometimes they have central sensitization. Their nervous system is so jacked up, and so that becomes part of the problem. So yes, Moira, absolutely. It's the personalization. And like what you said in the very beginning about it taking more than an hour, my visits are long, and it's because it takes a lot of time to really figure out exactly where this person is at and exactly how you can meet them where they're at and get them to a better place.

So each person has different needs. 

Moira McCormack: Yeah, and the psychology as well. you know, that they need that positivity. They need that, you know, pushing in the right direction with a huge amount of support and, I think, well, with every clinician [00:42:00] You know, it's psychology when that person is standing in front of you.

It's, when you go to the strength trainer, whoever it is, gotta understand who you are, what you need, and carry you through, with interest and creativity and variety. And I think that's probably what your daughter has, Jennifer. She's got that crea- creativity, so she can design anything for anyone because she really understands where they're coming from.

that's, that is important. or if you don't have that when they go to the gym, because a lot of schools now, they have the physio department, which has a gym, a Pilates, department, and then there's the doctor who visits. you've got to go into each department and do [00:43:00] your thing and come out saying, "I feel better.

I feel better after that." And, yeah, so often those little hypermobile, they're going round and round, and in the end they don't like going to the gym because it's a bit boring and, "Ah, I don't want to do that." It's boring and 

Jennifer Milner: it hurts. Yeah. 

Moira McCormack: Yeah. So it's, that's what we can't allow to happen. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And if Jennifer's daughter is as creative as Jennifer is, I'm sure that they're in fabulous hands, because I love Jen's creative things that I've always learned every time I go to an I Adams conference, I always go to Jen's workshops if I possibly can, 'cause I always learn something cool and, new.

we're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, we're gonna talk about what has changed over the years and what we want young dancers especially, and young teachers, et cetera, to know. So we're gonna take a quick break, and we will be right back.

Thank you so much for listening to [00:44:00] Bendy Bodies. We really appreciate your support. It really helps the podcast when you like, subscribe and comment on YouTube and follow, rate and review on all audio platforms. This helps us reach so many more people and spread the information to everyone. Thank you so much again and enjoy the rest of the episode.

[ep200 Intro): I'm 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: super excited to tell you about the Bendy Bodies Boutique. I am so proud of our fierce styles and flexible designs. These are created by hypermobile artists for hypermobile shoppers. There are so many fun items from clothing, accessories, home goods, and my favorite are the bags. I especially love the weekender tote with one of the EDS Tough designs.

Whether you're shopping for yourself or someone you love, there's so many options to choose from. A portion of the proceeds goes to support EDS nonprofit organizations. For more information, please visit bendybodiesboutique.com.

Jennifer Milner: We are back, and I am Jennifer Norman, and I'm here with Dr. Linda Bluestein. And we are continuing to talk with Moira about, [00:45:00] reminiscing back to our original episode, the very first one as we celebrate 200 episodes with Bendy Bodies podcast. And Moira, I was gonna ask you, one thing that I still think people misunderstand is that hypermobility can be both an asset and a liability, or, not a liability, but a vulnerability, right?

so how do you balance that conversation when you have it with the dancer, when you have it with the teacher, the parents, the company director, without that fear-mongering? How do you do that? 

Moira McCormack: just very positive. Yeah. The hypermobile dancer makes a great professional dancer eventually, but we really have to be very careful along the way to prevent the injury.

How are we going to do that? Well, I really put it down to [00:46:00] teaching. I really feel that, They have the breadth of movement, they have the huge range, but according to the age and the stage, that range has to be, limited until there is control. of course, they love to celebrate that extreme range, but that can't be every day.

training is training, and building strength is part of class work. Building control is part of your, daily class, and that needs to be finely controlled, and the teacher really needs to understand the physique and then understand how the technique is going to-- the physique is gonna match the technique.

how can [00:47:00] you do that in a class of 40? Now, if there's some schools around who has, have 40 in the, studio at class in the morning, that is not gonna be teaching. You can't teach properly, especially if we're talking about that 13, 14 adolescent, age group. So teaching needs to be in smaller groups and, over-- it needs to be done over time when the teacher has time to understand each physique in the class and teach accordingly, and develop a rapport with every single child, and have cues to, remind each person of their corrections or the things they've gotta, they've gotta remember.

so yeah, I'm asking for something much more [00:48:00] difficult than just going in and giving a class I think it's not understood. by the best teacher, of course that's understood, but it's not understood across the board, and I, find that a big problem, and I, disagree with it. It makes money when you've got 40 people in the studio, but, you can't teach that way.

Another bugbear is you can't teach remotely. Ooh, I don't like that. and there's a lot of it happening. It hap- it started over COVID, and now it's still going on. You can't teach remotely. D- any of you teach remotely? 

Jennifer Milner: I do. I do one-on-ones. I do privates, like, Pilates and such remotely. I prefer to be able to work with them in person a, a few times at least at first so that we can, you know...

but it's really [00:49:00] slow-going, and, they either have the mental patience to do it with me and understand we're gonna go slowly to make sure they're doing it right, or they don't. Sometimes I will coach a professional dancer, online. I have dancers in, you know, companies around the country, and they'll say, "I'm having a really lot of trouble with this," and I'll watch them.

We'll take it apart. We'll do some exercises to address it, that sort of thing. and I will also say that I sometimes take class, from my favorite studios from New York from my dancer days that I get to Zoom in on. I have no expectations of anything except that I'm gonna have a good time. I do not agree with, I do not find it ideal to have, regular long-term instruction, dance-wise online. I think there's a lot that's missed, even if you're a really great teacher and if you're watching really closely on the [00:50:00] camera and all of that. but just as much, I agree with what you said about having 40 people in class.

In the studios that have those big classes, those are the ones that require their top dancers to, to take privates as well, and privates are the only way that their technique will be managed enough to be able to keep up with the demands of today's, expectations. So I think it's a, perpetual self-feeder.

The schools get a lot of money for the big classes, and then they get money for the, privates as well. 

Moira McCormack: So I think teaching is much harder than people think it is, and, ex- professional dancers don't just... They shouldn't just think, "Well, I've, been in this company. I've been in that company.

I can teach," and just move into their next career. I just do... I really disagree with it. You've got to learn to teach. You've got... Even if a teaching course is [00:51:00] a short-ish course, which- you know, they do in London. at least your, all of these suggestions are made to you and, you realize, oh, this isn't, this isn't just a, a quick walkthrough.

There's a lot to it. And then hopefully they start teaching and then start to really progress and learn how to teach. I mean, I taught for, I did a nine-month teaching course when I decided to, give it a go and, then went off and, taught in, I did a lot of teaching in, in, in Japan, which was not the best place to teach because of course everyone just, the discipline is so fantastic and they do exactly as they, as you want them to do.

You never have to struggle for anything. They just do it all. [00:52:00] I was a bit spoiled there and, but I did realize at that point early on teaching, I don't really know what I'm doing here. I don't re- I'd done my teaching course, but I still don't understand what's going on, you know, under the skin. And so that's when I did do physio and, and, then it all, then it started to make sense.

and I learned from good physios who, taught me that how important technique was. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: When I started doing this work and I would go into studios sometimes and give a presentation or something, it just always kind of floored me that, like you said, somebody could just say that they're a teacher and start teaching.

And some are obviously excellent about, you know, learning what they need to know in order to really support these students. Because we [00:53:00] know that the students, if they're having pain or whatever, they're going to go to the dance teacher first. And so it's important that the dance teacher knows what to do when they're, you know, saying that something hurts or whatever.

But I feel like there's so much, at least here in the U.S., it seems like there's a lot of either competition or pressure that they're going to either sometimes put kids up on point before they're ready because they feel like, oh, they're just going to go to a different studio if I don't do it or give them harder things to do.

And so the technique is not clean. And so that puts them at risk of injury. So I feel like that competition between schools also sometimes makes it so that they make choices that are not in the dancer's best interest. 

Moira McCormack: It's very hard being a teacher. I think it's one of the hardest professions to do well.

it has to be commercial up to a point and to hold on to your students takes that strength of personality, knowledge. You've got to be able to [00:54:00] entertain. You've got to be able to, Have wit. You've got to be able to make them enjoy themselves, and you've got to be a psychologist as well. And then you've got to know what's going on under the skin, and then you've got to really push them so they feel they're, they are actually moving forwards.

So I think it's the hardest profession to do well. 

Jennifer Milner: It's incredibly hard, and I think a lot of it goes back to, two things that, that you have talked about. One is developing your eye to understand what you're seeing, right? And the other is developing your communication skills, to be able to communicate and to be able to get to that.

Something that Linda and I have talked a lot about is, what makes some hypermobile dancers thrive while, others will become profoundly sym- symptomatic or, at the very least, sort of stay at that level. You know, you see those dancers when they're 9, 10 years old and everybody's like, "Oh, they're gonna be amazing," and then they kind of peak when they're [00:55:00] 12 and, move on there.

And I I think some of the things that I see are either you have a good teacher with good communication skills that can, see it for the long run and help build them up, or you don't. Either you have good, good teachers with good eyes, like, that can see what's going on, or they don't. And the dancers that I see survive and thrive, in the professional dance world are the ones when they were younger that had that understanding group around them of teachers, parents who are willing to learn and to, develop more knowledge about the issue, who had PTs on hand and that sort of thing.

what, have you seen throughout your career with working with all these levels of dancers as the thing that sort of makes some of them take off and some of them stall out? 

Moira McCormack: I think it has a lot to do with psychology and how they're shown to, manage [00:56:00] those problems To be encouraged that it'll get better.

We just do the right, something's happened, we'll get that, we'll get through that, we'll manage the problem, and we'll move on. so there will be those hiccups constantly in the hypermobile physique. But as long as there's also, they don't... They need to have it explained to them, but it is very irksome to hear it all the time.

It's because you're hypermobile. So they've got to understand that there is something there. Their, physique is a bit different, and it can all be managed and not to go back to you're hypermobile each time because it doesn't explain anything to a young person. it's the precision on point.

It's the, right, we'll do more balance exercises. We'll get that calf a bit stronger. [00:57:00] you know, we've always got a way to go. There's always some way to go to sort out the problem, and they've got to know that and feel, encouraged by that. 

Jennifer Milner: I think we, we all agree that dance absolutely, the culture sort of amplifies like perfectionism, nervous system dysregulation, overtraining, injury risk, people-pleasing, sort of ignor- ignoring the warning signs.

but the dance culture itself amplifies those which are, can be very heavily present in people with hypermobility disorders. and you've talked a lot about the psychology of, of teaching. What do you wish that every dance teacher understood about hypermobility specifically?

Moira McCormack: they learn in a much slower way, that they need a lot of repetition And that they are [00:58:00] sometimes, they-- it's frustrating as a teacher. You've got the, the-- you've got the corrections in there, and they're making the same mistake again and again. You have to forgive them for that, and you just keep going with the reminding, reminding, gently getting them into the right postural balance.

And, you are patient. You've gotta be patient with them. you get all of that in at the very beginning when you start teaching this of young age groups, and you won't have as many problems later. It's when they've, you know, the posture is off, they're taking their tension in different places.

And I often say, "Oh my goodness, she's held together with her-- by her stiff thoracic spine and her iliotibial bands, and that's the only thing that's holding her together." And you've gotta get... There's a lot of [00:59:00] work when you get s-stuck with a d- a, a dancer like that. but it's a slow process of releasing and strengthening, and releasing and controlling, and never giving up and be-being very patient.

I think a lot... I think when I'm asked this, you know, by teachers, "How do you-- what is the key to teaching a very hypermobile physique? What is it?" well, there's no one thing. it's a very difficult question to answer. It's like If you've got an eye , you know, you just get that dancer into the right position each time.

No slacking, never allowing them to relax into those, bad habits. It's gotta be precise at, in every class, or else you won't pr- [01:00:00] progress. and you just keep going with them. If you believe in them, and if they're really gonna go somewhere, and you see something there, and they've got the spark, and they've got the brain, and they've got the intelligence, they're just, you know, a bit frustrated with their own bodies, that's when you just have to be patient and keep going.

I mean, I think we are much better now in ballet studios of encouraging rather than, "That's gotta be better. It's not good enough. Look in the mirror. Ah, huh." we're not... I think we are better generally, at copi- at being more positive. And, yeah, it's, it's going with them and also, empathizing.

Yeah, it's really difficult. I, look at them and I go, "Do you realize you've just taken on the most difficult of tasks? You want to be a classical ballet [01:01:00] dancer. Well, I can't think of anything more difficult to do. Are you sure you don't want to just stay at school and go to university, and you'll have a career when you're 50?

But if you wanna go to this vocational school, you know, life is, as a dancer, is sort of starting to wane by the time you're 35. Are you sure you want this?" And they go, "Oh, absolutely. I need it." And then you go, "Okay, we'll do it together." so, you know, it's, They've gotta realize what they're up against And sometimes I have persuaded people, no.

You're too clever. You're really too clever. You stay at that good academic school, and you just enjoy your dance, and you'll be able to do it at university anyway. But really, don't put yourself through it." 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah. Well, and, [01:02:00] it's true, there, there, are ongoing conversations that you have with pre-professional dancers.

teachers, for me, the biggest thing is what you said. The... And I just say it's slow and low, right? Low stress, slow development, and if the teachers just remember that and stick with them for that long journey, I feel like, so much is easier for those dancers. what, advice would you give to the parents of a hypermobile dancer?

Well, 

Moira McCormack: first advice to all parents of dancers is, are you sure you want to go through with all this? Because, you know, you will feel every stress that your child feels, and, that climbing up the ladder and achieving, is a painful process. so I warn them about that. And then, you know, it's that you're the one at home being totally [01:03:00] supportive.

You don't have to do too much. You just, you need to be supportive and encouraging, and you have to have a good relationship with the teacher. and maybe don't get too involved, and don't, you know... Let the teachers sort of take o- take the stress. Don't try and take on that stress at home. That's not what the child needs.

But I think that's every parent, isn't it? It's every parent, but, especially when, the, child is ambitious, talented, gets all the right cues, in the studio. She's doing well. She's popular. She's gonna be good. I think you also have to be very careful that your child doesn't get Who, [01:04:00] doesn't, isn't pushed and given a lot of stuff too soon because they're talented.

and you have to be careful of the, the, recovery. You're at home. You're the one that, needs to make sure the recovery is happening, and you need to understand, how each week and month needs to pan out. And, you know, we all know the, parents who they want the best for their children, and you suddenly the child is seven work, working seven days a week, and seems to want it, and maybe does genuinely want it, and they're working seven days a week.

But something's gonna happen. It's usually gonna be anterior tibial stress, you know, or medial tib- tibial stress syndrome, because they're just doing too much. They're not recovering, and so they need that war- those [01:05:00] parents need to be warned. Just be careful, you know? 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah. I would agree. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And what do you think the biggest mistakes that clinicians make still with hypermobile dancers?

Moira McCormack: I think, often it's, a quick referral to the gym, a quick referral to, "Oh, you must go and do some more Pilates. Oh, lower abs need more work," instead of really finding out what that physique needs. I think, you know, physios need to be really on it to be able to diagnose a hip correctly, and I'm just finding, I don't know what it's like in the States, but, over here, physios aren't really doing a lot of manual therapy.

They're not putting a lot of hands on bodies. It's more exercise, driven [01:06:00] I can't work like that. I feel a patient, especially a dancer, needs tactile, needs that reassurance. You need to feel those tissues. You know, you feel a calf in a tighter dancer, and you feel a calf in a, hypermobile dancer. You feel very different.

You've really gotta feel those tissues, feel those joints. You have to be careful when you're mobilizing a joint, because some of those hypermobile joints really move, and, that's not what they need. They need to move those joints maybe in the mid thoracic. They certainly don't want s- don't need that in the lumbar spine.

so hands-on, I think, is very important for physical therapists, to get a feel of that particular body. 

Jennifer Milner: Especially with the [01:07:00] hypermobile population because you can feel how different it is, and you can feel what, what's moving through there. You said something about, the-- people say, "Oh, they need their lower abdominals" And I'm like, I'll, I will get dancers come to me that PTs have said they, their lower abdominals are weak, and I'm...

Or they don't have them or, you know, whatever. And I'm like, "Well, I can see them. Like, I can see, like you're-- you have a lot of really strong muscles, so obviously they exist." What's happening that they're not turning on when they should? Like, I think that's the more accurate question. There's a limit to how many planks and bridges, or not bridges, planks and, sit-ups and stuff you can do that are really gonna help if you can't connect those dots.

So the, exercise portion for me that's most helpful with PT is, repatterning. You know, so the hands-on, super important, and that repatterning, and teaching them what a good squat feels like, and they can do the squats on their own if they need to. But y- you can't just, like, give them 10 squats and walk [01:08:00] away.

I totally agree with that. Okay, the things that we would fix if we could fix everything, right, in the PT world as we're talking about this. So, what do you think or you hope that the next 10 years looks like? What, what gives you optimism for the hypermobility world? What are you hoping for?

Moira McCormack: Well, I think we're, understanding hypermobil- hypermobility so much better. I still feel that there's a, s- a, a group of people who really do get it, but then the young physiotherapists coming up, and now that we have S- S&C, strength and conditioning, in, in, classical ballet, I'm not sure.

I think we still need to be bringing people [01:09:00] on board and telling them about this, and educating. I think sometimes, you know, it becomes a, fashion and we all learn a lot about it, and we carry on, but, other people are coming up and they're not actually on board and know enough about it. So we have to carry on with, education, and especially young t- young teachers coming in.

and the other, professions, around the teaching of Pilates. The, Pilates people do understand. They do understand the, the control. it's just, I find it's lacking 'cause I l- I, I look at the vocational schools, and what they're offering, and it should be so much more than we ever had.

So, and it is, [01:10:00] but it's, got to be aimed in the right way, with a lot of education. And none of it's easy learning about dancers and dancers' physiques. It's, it needs that very specific education. and we don't have, in this country, we don't have an organization for, physiotherapists in dance. and, and I feel we should.

We're working on it. We're trying to. Do you have, in the US, any sort of organized group that concentrate on dancers and have an educational system that they have put together for clinicians coming into dance? And then a s- a vocational school looking to employ, different, the different professions in the healthcare, [01:11:00] department, so they should be asking, "Have you done your certificate in, in dance, treatment, dance education, dance exercise?"

we don't have anything, and we need it. dancing is very popular. there's so much of it. We have the whole of the West End. There's the whole of Broadway, where, you know, I'm not sure we've got the best care for those dancers going on. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. I, agree. I don't think we do. 

Jennifer Milner: we do have, you know, c- colleges that offer certificates in, dance medicine specialization.

Jeff Russell from, Ohio University has a great one, and it's about a year long, you know. There's those sorts of things, so I do encourage people to look for that when they're looking for a PT, or some sign that they have worked with, dancers in some s- space like that. [01:12:00] But you're right. There is no, you know, full, there's no body, of that in the US either.

And, what you're saying about looking forward into the next 10 years with, it sounds like you're saying the silver bullet still is education, that- Maybe it's summing it up too tidily to say that since our first episode, we have seen research come a long way. I think we have. I think we've seen so much research.

I think that hypermobility has really, become a main- more a mainstream topic of conversation. And, what you're seeing is hopefully in the next 10 years, education on that will be just as mainstream, which is absolutely my hope, as well. so I'm gonna ask you really fast questions. We're going, to our lightning round.

so what, what's one thing everything hyper- every hypermobile person should prioritize? Just off the top of your head. [01:13:00] 

Moira McCormack: Understanding their physique, knowing about hard work and recovery. 

Jennifer Milner: Beautiful answer. That's great. Also, education, PS. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: What worries you the most? 

Moira McCormack: diagnosis, lack of diagnosis of, injuries.

I mean, you... Not the diagnosis of the hypermobility because it, you know, we can recognize that, we can measure it, we can, But, being able to diagnose the problem and, get the rehab, the correct rehab for that physique. hypermobile with will, rehab, probably in a different way, in a slower way, and, and if they've got to understand that.

Clinicians have got to understand it. Doctors have got to understand it. They don't get better really quickly. It takes quite a long time to put in [01:14:00] all the, facets of that rehabilitation after a bad injury. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And what's something that you used to believe that you no longer believe? 

Moira McCormack: Oh, I find that quite difficult.

Jennifer? 

Jennifer Milner: That was very scary to think. I was thinking about that too, and I know some of the... I was just thinking the other day about how my approach to something had changed a little bit. I think I, I moved to... I still do stability first. I still do trunk stability and then proximal joint stability and then move outward from there.

but I think I look to load heavier sooner than I used to. I think I find if I can, like, do quadruped position, hands and knees for a shoulder issue, and they can hold that for five seconds, that's more valuable to me than, you know, open chain, really light work. So I think I move to a heavier load sooner than I used to.

I don't look for perfection in those unstable joints, 'cause I think the retraining comes [01:15:00] faster if we learn to make choices in the midst of that instability. Does that make sense? 

Moira McCormack: Yes, totally. I agree. 

Jennifer Milner: Linda, what about you? 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I realized after I asked the question and then Moira turned it around to you, I was like, "I kinda hope they don't ask me."

Moira McCormack: Yes, I had to. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: it's a hard... It's a really hard question. It's funny, 'cause I had it in here, but it was like, that is a hard question. well, I, think actually I'll say what, I have said already on this show many, times, and I mentioned it at the very beginning about mast cells and hormones.

When I first started doing this work, I thought, "All these people have hypermobile joints. Some of them have EDS. Not all of them, but some of them have hypermobile EDS, some have other reasons for their hypermobile joints, and then there's this subset that has mast cell activation syndrome, but it's not that significant."

And over time, I have found that more and more people may be presenting with things that maybe it is on the lower end of the spectrum of mast [01:16:00] cell activation syndrome. It's not maybe as, like, florid. They're not flushing and hives, and, you know, it's not, like, this clear-cut picture. But if they have gastrointestinal complaints, if they get migraines, if they have, you know, bladder pain or, you know, CRPS or things like that, like, treating the mast cell really seems to make a really big difference.

So that's probably my biggest shift in my thinking. 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah. And w- it'll be interesting to answer that question again, you know- 200 episodes from now ... in a few years. Yeah. Yeah. Or we've all changed too. Yeah. well, Moira, one of the things, our listeners love is to, is to hear... They love to hear what kind of hacks the, experts can offer.

So can you think, do you have a, hypermobility hack that you might offer to the listeners, as a way to, a small little piece of advice, a small little piece of practicality that people can use? 

Moira McCormack: I want a hypermobile dancer to be able to stand in perfect [01:17:00] posture before they start moving. 

Jennifer Milner: That's not 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: a hack.

Ah. And 

Moira McCormack: that is one of the hardest things. It's too hard. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love it. 

Moira McCormack: It's one of the hardest things. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes. Yes. 

Moira McCormack: I just stand there and get that crown of the head over the front of the calcaneus, and your hypermobile knees under control- ... with the inside thighs working and the lower abdominals- 

Jennifer Milner: It's too 

Moira McCormack: hard.

all coordinated. And just that Honestly, it's, I, tried a h- a, with a, group of physios to look at a, series of children and about 16 years old, and go ask the dancer to stand there in normal posture, just parallel, best posture you can think of, then turn out. And we marked them before they, in parallel, and then we marked them in turnout, and [01:18:00] everyone had such different ideas about it.

These were really good dancers as well. They were all, you know, in a top school and well-taught, and honestly, I found it very difficult to get those physiotherapists to understand and agree, with each, posture. That aside, I, was slightly worried about that. but, that's the first thing I think we should be looking at.

There, the, you know, the, I think really the hypermobile physique does find it difficult to, p- depending on the age and stage, to just get that first... You know, you might be standing in first, you might be standing in fifth, but just to get that perfectly coordinated. I think before we, if we haven't found that, we're not gonna be able to move properly.

So, and they've gotta be able to start that way and finish that way. Yeah. 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah. All right. So I will say, I, think it, it sounds horrible, [01:19:00] but also I think it sounds great because I, do actually think that's a really good hack. Whether you're a dancer or just a person who is trying to get to the mailbox, I think it's a great hack to just practice on purpose good posture.

You know, our joints have ADHD. They just run everywhere like cats and, and like trying to mindfully stand in good posture and not let your brain wander and your body puddle, I think it, that's a great hack and it'll just become commonplace. Okay. All right. That's an excellent hack. I love that.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love it. I love it too, and as soon as you started to say that, I was thinking, "Oh my gosh, this is so much harder than I think." A lot of people realize, because when I've watched classes and I see people s- I see people standing in the back of the room and they are often sinking into their hypermobile joints.

They're so tired, right? They're just huddled. They're just like 

Jennifer Milner: Yep. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yep. Yeah. 

Moira McCormack: I know. You, and you, tell them, you know, the number of hours of [01:20:00] every week you're standing there in an unsupported, your joints are unsupported, you're standing on one hip that, you know, and you're hanging on that hip or hanging into the back of the knee.

That is a weakening process, and we're trying to strengthen you. So in between all the choreography you're doing and all the classes and all the performances and all the rehearsal, it's still gotta be there. Every step is an exercise, I say, as they leave the room. Remember, every step is an exercise. And then if they're still not getting them, getting it, I take them to the stairs and I go, "Right, take every step.

Go up there, and I wanna see everything in place all the way up and all the way down." 

Jennifer Milner: Okay, I will never come take with Moira. She's gonna be too hard. She looks like she 

Moira McCormack: means everything. 

Jennifer Milner: I am demanding. 

Moira McCormack: But it's just making [01:21:00] someone think, you know? And they do start to think in between. I, say, "Right, now you're gonna walk down Topham Court Road and think about that big toe.

Just think about it inside your trainer as you're walking along. It'll activate so much. It'll activate that arch" It, I'm sure it does. I'm convinced 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right. Well, the whole saying about what, fires together, wires together, right? So the more that we do whichever kind of habits, the more that it's going to wire, so, I think that's, really important.

And before we go, can you tell people where they can learn more about you and, if you have any special projects or anything that you want to share? 

Moira McCormack: Well, I don't do social media, you know? I just toddle along and see my patients. I don't write a lot. I will be finishing, I will be trying to finish off a book.

but I don't, actually do social media, so [01:22:00] I'm, really not a fashionable person. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: If, somebody is listening to this and they are in... You're in London, correct? And if they want to, work with you, okay, so how would they find you? 

Moira McCormack: Through the UCL website and also through, the, it's called the I- ISEH, is, an institute of sport, exercise, and health, part of UCL.

And we're in the middle of London, in Tottenham Court Road, and I see dancers of all sorts, all ages, over here. And, and so I can be contacted, very easily through ISEH. And if anyone's visiting, I have got a, student coming in a couple of weeks, who's coming to interview me about, me, it's probably about [01:23:00] injury and teaching and not about hypermobility, but she's from the States and she's coming over to finish off part of her master's.

And so I'm here, and she found me, so I'm very happy to see anyone who's passing through. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, I can't think of a better way to celebrate our 200th episode to have both of you here. It's been such a fantastic conversation. before we go, Jen, do you wanna quickly let people know where they can find you?

Jennifer Milner: sure. you can find me on Instagram at jennifer.milner, and then my website is jennifer-milner.com. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And you and I are doing a program together in July that if, 

Jennifer Milner: Yes ... 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: there's... Yes, July 23rd. It's a Thursday, is that correct? Right before the EDS Society Conference. It's a Thursday. So if anyone is interested, please contact one of us and we will give you more information.

Jennifer Milner: Yes. That will be in [01:24:00] Dallas, Texas, so it will be live. Yes. So you can learn live from Dr. Linda Bluestein. Live, live- ... from Dr. Linda Bluestein. Just for meta. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Live, live and, in person, so yeah, it's gonna be fun. 

Jennifer Milner: That's right. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay, great. Well, thank you so much to both of you for taking the time to, to talk with us today and share your incredible wisdom with our listeners.

It's been a really fun conversation.

Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Bendy Bodies Podcast. If you'd like to go deeper, I share additional education, clinical insights, and resources in my newsletter, The Bendy Bulletin, which you can find on Substack at hypermobilitymd.substack.com. You can also help us spread the word about connective tissue disorders by leaving a review, sharing this episode, or sending it to someone who needs it.

These small actions truly make a difference in raising awareness about conditions that are still widely misunderstood. And don't forget, full video episodes [01:25:00] are available every week on YouTube at Bendy Bodies Podcast. As many of you know, I offer one-on-one coaching and mentorship for both individuals living with connective tissue disorders and people caring for them.

You can learn more about these options on the services page at hypermobilitymd.com. You can find me, Dr. Linda Bluestein, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, X, and LinkedIn, all at Hypermobility MD. As part of our collaboration with the UVA Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome Center, we also wanna share some of their helpful resources.

For questions or appointment inquiries, you can contact the UVA EDS Center at ruvaedscenter@uvahealth.org. Again, that's the letter R as in Robert, uvaedscenter@uvahealth.org. You can find answers to common questions at uvahealth.com/support/eds/faq. Our incredible production team is Human Content. You can find them on TikTok and Instagram at Human Content Pods.

As you know, we love bringing on guests with unique [01:26:00] perspectives to share. However, these unscripted discussions do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions held by me or the Bendy Bodies team. Although we may share healthcare perspectives on the podcast, no statements made on Bendy Bodies should be considered medical advice.

Please always consult a qualified healthcare provider regarding your own care. For more information about the Bendy Bodies program disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification and licensing terms, HIPAA release terms, or to get in touch with us, please visit bendybodiespodcast.com. Bendy Bodies Podcast is a Human Content production.

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