Parenting Making You Both Sick? with Dr. Shimi Kang (Ep 160)

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Dr. Shimi Kang: [00:00:00] You have to walk on that trail to develop a pathway. So if your child isn't speaking, they're not gonna develop that pathway. If they're not independent problem solving, they're not gonna develop that pathway. And we know that in all forms of neurodiversity. We do wanna start building those neural pathways towards self-confidence and some independence.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome back every bendy body to the Bendy Bodies Podcast with your host and founder, Dr. Linda Bluestein in the Hypermobility md. Also, check out the bendy bulletin on substack. You can subscribe@hypermobilitymd.substack.com. I'm so excited today to talk to Dr. Shimi Kang. Dr. Kang is a psychiatrist, bestselling author, keynote speaker, and researcher living with a bendy body.

This is such an important conversation [00:01:00] because mental health and living with a bendy body we know can be such an impactful experience. Dr. Kang is gonna talk about parenting while you're in chronic pain, and also how we can help children who are themselves dealing with chronic pain. Dr. Kang is an award-winning Harvard trained psychiatrist, number one, bestselling author and leading expert on the science of motivation, leadership, and resilience.

She's the author of The Dolphin Parent, the Self-Motivated Kid, and the Tech Solution, creating Habits for a Digital World. Her work has been recognized with the American Academy of Addiction Psychiatry Award, the YWCA Women of Distinction Award, and the Queen Elizabeth two Diamond Jubilee Medal for her contributions to health and community wellbeing.

Dr. Kang is also a celebrated professional keynote speaker and her TED Talk on adaptability has been seen by millions beyond her professional accomplishments. Dr. Kang lives with EDS and has endured years of severe chronic pain. This personal journey of navigating physical limitations while [00:02:00] sustaining a global speaking career, clinical practice and writing has deepened her perspective on adaptability, balance, and self-compassion.

I'm so excited about this conversation because I think almost all of us struggle with balance and self-compassion. As always, this information is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice. Stick around until the very end, Sue. Don't miss any of our special hypermobility hacks.

Let's get started.

Okay, well, we are back with Dr. Kang, and I'm so excited to chat with you. Um, I know you said that your chronic pain experience began when you were writing your first book, which was on parenting. And at that time you had three children under the age of 10, a busy clinical practice, a university research position, and a book deal with penguin.

Uh, obviously a crazy time in your life. Can you tell us your story and how you managed all of this and coping with EDS and chronic pain? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. Um, it's quite the story [00:03:00] and I do wanna start by saying I'm so grateful to be on this podcast. Um, and I wish I had bendy bodies back then. Um, because what you've done for the community is incredible.

I've gotten so much very helpful information, um, including planning my next surgery from your episode. Oh. So, um, back then, I would say this was about 10 years ago, uh, 2014. Uh, there really, I felt very isolated, very lonely, um, with having hypermobility and chronic pain. Um, so. And there wasn't a lot of specialists, and I know you've talked many times, there's a lot of stigma and having an invisible diagnosis.

And I remember going to doctors saying something's wrong with me. Uh, and I remember seeing my charts and it said, busy mom of three with um, uh, lots going on and, um, you know, writing a book. And it kind of just got written off that I was too busy and it really hurt because I'm like, I know how to have [00:04:00] self care.

I sleep, I walk, I stretch, like I am taking care of myself. That's not the issue. So just if I think back at that time, um, it was, uh, such a gross time for me. Um, and I think the emotion there was probably anger because I finally, um. Uh, it was around the time that there was this book out called The Tiger Mom.

And, um, people were like overscheduling their kids and pushing their kids and it was never meant to be a parenting book, it was a memoir. Um, but I worked, uh, in Vancouver and I had parents come in holding that book, um, saying, you know what we need? I need to push my kid more in sports or piano. And I opened up the book with a story of a young man in my practice who had cut, slid his, uh, forearms, uh, with his violent strings.

Um, 'cause he was so over pressured. And there was this big conversation, um, about, um, you know, we're gonna fall [00:05:00] behind, uh, in North America and China's is gonna do better in math and science marks and international scores. And I really felt I had something to say based on years of experience with.

Teenagers and adolescents understanding, motivation, understanding what really motivates young people and all humans. And I wanted to say it, and I finally got this book deal and I was so passionate about it. But then, um, I was having trouble writing on my laptop and my neck would flare up and my upper back would flare up.

And I didn't understand why the universe was doing all of this to me at this time and working really hard to manage it with the three kids. Uh, and it, it turned into, I think, um, a daily kind of crisis, try to just to get through. Uh, when in retrospect I should have just pressed pause. Um, I should have talked to my editor.

I should have, um, you know, just, uh, [00:06:00] managed it. But I felt that I had to just push through. And I think that was kind of a big conversation, uh, rise and grind, push through, you know, your, this self-compassion, uh, wasn't as big, uh, of a conversation back then. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: So there's probably a lot of things that you would tell your younger self.

You've already shared some of them. Are there other things as well that you would like to go back and tell your younger self? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, I think listen to, uh, your body, right? Um, and I think as a psychiatrist and someone who had spent so much time understanding the mind, um, and the brain, uh, I really forgot about the intelligence in the body, um, that your body speaks to you and all those cliches.

Um, but in Western medicine, the mind and body is disconnected, right? Um, you know, we know the history of that back in the Renaissance when, you know, the early anatomists, like Leonardo da Vinci asked to dissect the body. Um, they were [00:07:00] kind of given the body, uh, permission, uh, 'cause it was blasphemy, but they were told the mind belongs to, you know, the, the, the church at the time.

Um, you know, all hope feelings, um, uh, you know, that. We don't want. And therefore in western medicine we see this disconnect of minded body and you see a psychiatrist for emotional and mental health and then you see, you know, and a, um, physiotherapist for your body stuff. Well, I think, you know, really remembering that we are one being and it is all interconnected.

And I had forgotten that just based even more on my training, um, as a psychiatrist. So that was the biggest learning, I think for myself. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. It's so, so challenging when you're trying to do so many of those different things. And I know you talk about, uh, some different parenting styles. So you talked about being an exhausted jellyfish parent or a stressed shark.

And, uh, I'm wondering how somebody with chronic pain can manage [00:08:00] and maintain a balanced dolphin style. So first of course, you need to explain what these different things are, 'cause I'm sure a lot of listeners have read your books, but probably not everyone, although they're gonna go by it. Buy your books after this, I'm sure.

Dr. Shimi Kang: So, um, my first book was called The Dolphin Parent. Um, and uh, then it morphed into something called The Self-Motivated Kid. Um, and in that book I wanted to present the science of parenting, uh, what actually worked. Uh, and um, there's six zero prescriptions in the book. And these prescriptions start with breathe and drink water and play and social connection.

And so I go through each one, but I started with the interpersonal style that's known to motivate, um, individuals. And this came from my work in addiction. So as an addiction psychiatrist, you know, I became an expert on motivation because. Addiction's ultimately a disease of motivation. So we know there's three general interpersonal styles that we can show up as a doctor, as a parent, as [00:09:00] a friend.

Uh, on one extreme it's what's called the jellyfish permissive parent. Um, and this is a parent that lacks rules, focus expectations. You're either exhausted or avoidant. Um, you kind of like, you know, what can I do? They're on their cell phone, they're eating junk food. I already said they shouldn't. You know, um, I'm, I am overwhelmed.

Um, and that leads to permissive parenting. Lots of problems, risk taking, anxiety, and we see the list go on. On the other extreme is what's called authoritarian parenting. Or you can think of the shark as the metaphor or the tiger parent or the helicopter or the snowplow and the metaphors for that are on and on.

And this is an overbearing parent that is micromanaging overprotecting, uh, over directing. And again, lots of problems there with self-motivation. Kids don't know how to initiate things themselves. Um, they're being hovered and, and micromanaged. And the balance between those, um, I [00:10:00] use the metaphor of the dolphin 'cause we are visual learners and humans learn through stories.

So I presented this metaphor and I say, think of the animal. It is firm, yet flexible. So as a parent you are authoritative. Authoritative is this confusing term, but really it's about being firm. You are the parent, you are a moral compass. You do have a sense of authority. You can say no, you can set expectations.

Yet you are flexible. So you are adaptable with your changing age of your child with changing, um, situations. There's a pandemic, you're back at work, there's remote learning. Um, there's all kinds of stuff. Um, so you are flexible, you are adaptable, you bring in a different approach. If you have more than one child, um, there's curiosity there.

There's community, there's a sense of play. Um, so it's an authoritative interpersonal style, uh, which sounds simple, but simple is not easy, right? [00:11:00] We've all been jellyfish and we've all been sharks and yeah, it's not a, um, a static trait. Uh, I say on Monday, I'm a shark. On Friday I am a jellyfish exhausted.

And Wednesday, if I've done my self care and I've managed my own self, I might be that dolphin parent. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. I, I really appreciate that because I feel like if we hear these models and, and you're right, there's so many different terms, the snowplow or the tiger, these kind of things, um, we often think of that as being more static.

Like I am this type of parent and I like the kind of more like a growth mindset of, well, some days I might be this, other days I might be that, but the goal is to try to be the dolphin parent more frequently or on more days of the week, um, than the other ways of parenting. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Absolutely. And we know parenting in this modern time, um, you know.

It's interesting is very stressful. And sometimes it's like, um, and I often thought of myself like, why is this so stressful with my three kids? I [00:12:00] have, I had help. Um, I had chronic pain and ir losan and all kinds of issues. But when I compared that to my mom, who was an immigrant who had five kids, never went to school actually, um, definitely didn't train at Harvard and have all this knowledge in that way, but she, um, my mom actually can't read.

She's fully, um, had not even a grade one education, but she parented more from intuition. Uh. And uh, and I often ask myself, why is this so tough for me? 'cause I was parenting more from, uh, I would say that freeze fight or flight instinct 'cause I was in pain. Sure. Um, and I was busy. Uh, even without the pain.

There was felt like so much pressure, what we need to do. Um, there was comp, there's competition, there's um, all these messaging, marketing, messaging to parents. Uh, and I realized that simple is not easy. Um, and knowing is not doing, I knew better, but I would fall into these habits because everyone else was [00:13:00] doing it.

Um, and so my role model of my mom was really helpful for me, um, to get back to intuitive, um, uh, approaches, which is actually what the dolphin parent is about. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I know you've done an incredible amount of work and research on addiction, and you've mentioned already the connection between addiction and motivation.

And I would love to hear what tips you have for helping parents, um, self-motivate their kids and even impacting other people in our lives. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Sure, yeah. So this topic of addiction, how it applies to parenting. Um, many years ago I worked at the World Health Organization and uh, nicotine was considered the gateway drug.

Right now the gateway drug is sugar, um, ultra processed sugar and technology, and children are exposed to this very young, like age two, right? Sugar and iPads. Even babies, um, are on phones. We do have to understand that the world we live in, um, the gateway drugs, um, are, uh, [00:14:00] introduced very early. Uh, and so the, some of the biggest parenting, uh, concerns is diet tech.

Um, and, and then later on in adolescents, um, you know, all the other issues including nicotine and substances happening. Um, but parents we're also addicted, right? To our phones and sugar. Um, yeah, and there's a whole conversation there with how that might interact with pain and hypermobility, but the basics of self-motivation is showing up in that middle ground, that dolphin, right?

So if we're the jellyfish, we're not motivating, we're not setting any expectations. And if we're the shark we're taking over, um, we're taking over expectations, we're taking over the to-do list. So that's the first step and that's the hardest thing. Then what you wanna do is scaffold, depending on the age of your child, right?

So, um, always starting and think of the dolphin. They're curious and they're good communicators and they live in a community. So use those aspects. [00:15:00] Um, so if you're feeling like you. Don't know what to do. Let's say your child's playing too many video games. Be curious first and say, Hey, I'm noticing that you're, you know, spending more time on your games, less time with your friends.

Um, curious what's going on. What do you like about your games? Is there anything you don't like about your friends? Be open-ended, um, and see where it lands. Um, because that's where you're gonna get the more information. Whereas our instinct is to, uh, get in there and try to fix it and start giving advice.

So some basic tools, um, are, um, that balanced interpersonal style, curiosity building community because we can't parent in a silo. Uh, having curious, open-ended questions, um, and maintaining that connection, and that's really important. It's really hard to do if you have health issues yourself. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love that idea of, of asking questions.

'cause I think we often don't do that and I feel like that would be probably an even more effective strategy if someone's listening to this [00:16:00] and they have older kids and they're like, okay, well maybe I could have done some things a little bit differently when my kids were younger, but what can I do now to try to get them more into that self-motivated place?

So is that something that can be effective even if your kids are teenagers or, or even older? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, absolutely. People ask me all the time, you know, you know, my son's already, um, you know, addicted to, uh, you know, this gambling website or their FIFA video game packs or social media and what have you. Um, and the human brain is amazing.

Uh, it's right here. I love the human brain. Um, it's, uh, has something called neuroplasticity, which means it can always change. Um, and in fact, the under 25, we have more neuroplasticity, right? That's why young kids. People can learn multiple languages and sports better. So it is never too late to create better habits for yourself and your family.

Um, we have it till the moment we die. Um, my dad [00:17:00] is 93 and kind of dealt with some of his mental health issues in his eighties. Um, uh, and so that's the really beautiful thing about the human brain, uh, is we can always, uh, change our habits and behavior, but having a supportive environment, 'cause we are social beings.

Having that kind of authoritative approach, that guiding versus directing, but not being absent is a key part to changing habits. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Also, when we think about your, uh, neuroscience background, what would you say that we know about the science behind how a child might be affected by a parent having a chronic illness?

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. So, um, that's such a personal topic for me too because my daughter right now, who's 15, is going through some EMDR, which is eye movement desensitization response, um, for trauma, uh, which is an evidence-based treatment related to me. Um, because I had multiple [00:18:00] hospitalizations. Uh, and she actually was, um, when she was 11, she had to call the ambulance.

Um, uh, 'cause I was like so unwell and that's a memory in her mind. Um, so I think we have to realize when we're in survival, um, I had three. Seven day inpatient ketamine treatments for chronic pain. My kids had to come visit me. One was during COVID. It was very scary because it was at the beginning, before the vaccine, and I couldn't even touch them.

Um, but, you know, so I had to wave from the window. Uh, and I think, um, no matter how hard you try as a parent to put a smile on, um, kids are very intuitive. Um, and they know when you're hurting and suffering. So I think you want, you do want to balance that, oh, you know, happy family. And I'm gonna put a smile on my face to also be like, look, I uh, haven't been well, I know I'm not.

Well, how are you doing with that? What have you noticed? Um, [00:19:00] uh, how are you feeling about it? Right? Because sometimes we're just running in that freeze fight flight ourselves. And when we really think of those words, freeze is, um. In nature. It's like a rabbit camouflaging, but our freeze is, we get obsessive, we get controlling.

It's that little blue circle around and around. Um, and for me, I started to get obsessive and a bit controlling around my kids' sports 'cause I was worried they were gonna dislocate something. Maybe they had hypermobility so I would be overly, um, anxious. Uh, 'cause all three of them play sports. Um, and two of them actually had major injuries in high school.

So I became overbearing on that topic. Um, fight in nature is irritability, anger, uh, that my husband got. Uh, and um, flight is checking out, right? The rabbit runs away. We run away mentally. We may avoid topics. We might um, drink too much. Eat too much, shop too much, um, go on our [00:20:00] phones too much, any form of distraction.

So I was doing all of that because my amygdala was firing 'cause of chronic pain. Um, and I knew it too. So that was really, um. Uh, in some ways thank God I was, uh, I had that knowledge 'cause I could check myself and I told my family doctor, um, I actually went on medications, uh, for depression 'cause I think that was part of my chronic pain picture, which can happen.

Uh, but I think we don't really know it when we're in it. Um, but that does have an impact on your family For sure. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay. Thank you so much for that. And actually, I had asked, uh, listeners and followers if they had questions for you, and one of the questions that somebody asked was, how do we avoid inflicting our kids with our own baggage?

Dr. Shimi Kang: I don't think we can as parents. I think that, um, you know, we try not to, we try not to for sure. But I think, um, one thing is the, you know, no human is perfect. No [00:21:00] parent is perfect. So I think number one, be. Be okay. Um, and in fact, every child needs some adversity, right? When we really look at it, they're gonna have their challenges.

We wanna give them a perfect childhood. But in fact, um, when there is no stress, right, the brain is like a muscle. It does need to work through stuff, it does need to experience negative emotion, um, or, or all the range of emotion. We don't even wanna call it negative. Um, so, you know, feeling sad or disappointed or worried.

Um, so I think we all need to recognize that our kids are gonna have a human experience and maybe our illness or our pain might be part of that. But there is then an opportunity to build connection, to practice, communication, um, problem solving, adaptability, um, all of these things that you want, um, to instill in them.

Um, and you can do it through role modeling. Um, you know, I, I try my best. Um, but I feel all the time, and I [00:22:00] think that's really important. I wrote the book called A Dolphin Parent, and, but I'm not always a dolphin parent. My kids know that. Um, and so we also have to have that approach on ourselves too. We don't wanna be too hard on ourselves, um, like a shark, let's say.

But we also don't wanna be jellyfish and be like, you know what? I'm sick and that was the best I could do. Um, no, we wanna have personal growth. Uh, we wanna say, what can I learn from this? What can, how can we improve our connection and bond? Um, so really it's, um. I think the, the fundamental answer to that is self-care.

Um, and which is really hard as women, I think, especially the estrogen is pushing us to be a bit of people pleaser. Um, and, um, and so we, we do end up being, uh, uh, more of a caregiver and, and sacrificing our self-care as well. Uh, so there's so many layers to that, but it's that same cliche to put your oxygen mask on first.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I'm so [00:23:00] appreciative of this conversation because as, as a fellow physician, you know, we know that especially in the early years, if we're working many, many long hours taking call, things like that, there is a lot of guilt and I've definitely had to deal with that myself. Um, most of my medical problems happened when my kids were a little older, but it definitely is something that I think we all.

Uh, experience a, a little bit of that guilt of, you know, like you said, nobody has that perfect childhood and even if you could wave a magic wand and, you know, create that for your child, um, I appreciate that perspective, that that's not necessarily the best thing for them because maybe they wouldn't necessarily learn through that.

Things like resilience. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, we don't want, um. Pain and suffering. Um, and, uh, well, pain, you know, pain is unavoidable. Suffering is a bit more of, uh, I guess optional, but, um, challenge and adversity does build, um, those pathways and, [00:24:00] uh, it's never too late to connect with your kids. My eldest is 20 years old and now that I'm, last year I had a neuromodulator implanted, um, in my, in my spine in Denver with Dr.

Barot. He was amazing. My 20-year-old came, um, with me 'cause I had to stay in Denver. Um, and it was an opportunity for me to have conversations with him, um, about my pain and him growing up. Um, and so it's never too late. And sometimes these things that we see as really stressful or inflicting our baggage is actually opportunities for connection and growth.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: How can we talk most openly with our kids about things like pain or limitations in an age appropriate way that helps build that empathy and understanding rather than fear. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Right? Yeah. There's kind of three keys of chatting or talking to young people, and they're kind of the same for adults, but, um, it's basically a truth.

Uh, so [00:25:00] we wanna tell the truth. It can't be sugarcoated, right? 'cause they know, um, even little kids actually are very intuitive. They'll get butterflies in their tummy. Um, you know, when you're, when you're maybe not well and you think they don't know. So, um, be as open as you can, but start with curious, uh, questions.

Anything on your mind, anything you're worried about. And they may be like, well. I know mommy's not feeling good, or are you okay? Uh, and let them bring it up first. So truth is number one. Um, and then it's compassion really, um, validating their feelings. Um, often young people feel it's their fault. Um, you know, deep inside that's kind of a common, um, thing.

And, um, explaining to them that it's okay. They feel sad. It's okay. Maybe they feel selfish, right? I think, um, there was times where, uh, I was in a really rough. Place and I needed help. Like, you know, with every little thing in the house. I needed my help with my computer and my printer and groceries, and I wanted my kids to kind of be there and [00:26:00] they wanted to be kids and go, you know, do what they were gonna do.

And I remember my son saying sometimes he felt selfish for wanting to do that. And so, um, really having compassion for, uh, whatever emotions they may have. And then ending with the statement of optimism. So, um, uh, the human brain is where focus goes. Neurons grow, so any conversation you really wanna end with optimism, um, because there is a lot of, of firing down here that brainstem, amygdala, a lot of freeze, fight or flight when there's a parent who's ill or in pain happening, um, in the household.

So optimism pulls you into that cortex and says, you know what, um. You know, in the end of the day, um, it's great we're having this conversation. This is helpful, this is healing. We can sort it out, we can problem solve. Maybe we didn't figure it out today. Um, but, but let's keep working on it. So truth, compassion, optimism are key strategies 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: and, and the timing of this conversation is [00:27:00] really perfect for me because I've had a lot of stress lately.

Um, excuse me, uh, dealing with parenting parents and you mentioned that your dad is 93 and my parents are 91 and 93 and have been having some medical problems lately. And I feel myself going into my brainstem and in that fight or flight, you know, because sometimes it's very serious. Of course. Um, you know, at that, at those ages when we feel ourselves going into that fight, flight or freeze, and we feel ourselves in that brainstem part.

I know breathing of course is really important, but do you have other suggestions for how we can get ourselves back into our cortex? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Sure. Yeah. Um, I have a YouTube channel, uh, called Mental Wealth, um, and I spend a lot of time giving tools on there. And one of my favorite things I love telling people, let me grab my little friend here, is we actually don't just have.

One brain. We have three brains. Um, you know, we have major centers of intelligence. We have a brain in our gut, [00:28:00] very sensitive to primal emotions, fear, busyness, insecurity, breathing, gut breathing, belly breathing. Um, diet nutrition is super helpful. We actually have a brain in our heart, right? We have neurons in our heart that are sensitive to our social interactions, and we sort have to honor that brain.

And then of course, we have this brain. Um, and based on that model, I say everyone should have three coping skills. Um, and I use the acronym pod, POD. It's part of the dolphin metaphor. Um, so these three coping skills or what these three brains need, the p stands for play. Um, arc brain up here loves to play.

Meaning, um, if you are stressed. How do you play, uh, recreation? Think of that word, recreate. Um, do you like to listen to music? Do you like to play basketball? Play golf? Do you like to color? Um, what kind of play activity, recreation activity, hopefully not on screens like video gaming or, um. Can help [00:29:00] you, uh, as a coping skill and a brain optimizer.

So that's the p. The O is others. Um, who can you talk to when you're stressed? Um, uh, identify a friend or a pet cuddling a pet, or, um, you know, that, um, sense of connection. Um, so know that and have that kind of clear. And then the D is downtime. What kind of self-care, um, habit can you bring in? Is it breathing?

Is it taking a nap? Is it a, is it a walk in nature? So I ask everyone to identify three coping skills, a play coping skill, a social connection, and a downtime. Keep these in your mind. These are your go-to strategies. Um, sometimes you have time for one but not the other. Um, sometimes, you know, right before I have to go to a doctor's appointment with my elderly parents.

I may be like, okay, I'm gonna play pickleball tonight. Um, and just knowing that, um, can reduce my, uh, anxiety or my stress level, of [00:30:00] course. Um, or just staking a moment and feeling grateful for them as parents. And they weren't perfect, but what they were able to do for me, that's my other coping skills. So three coping skills, three brains.

It's a great, um, tool that we can all use. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay. I love that. 'cause it's so specific also, like having a very specific thing that we can do. And I often talk to people about what they can do if they're in a pain flare or if they're in a dip. Um, I know some people call it a dip, which I, I really like that.

And if you think ahead of time, what's my toolkit for a pain flare or, or a dip, it's a lot easier to then actually take those steps. Right. Whereas if you wait to think about those things, it's a lot harder. So I I love that. Uh, we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna talk about children who are in chronic pain or have, uh, complex illness.

We'll be right back.

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We are back with Dr. Kang. And I wanna talk now about what we can do for children who are in pain. I hear this all the time from people who have children with EDS and related conditions. [00:32:00] They really struggle, right? It's so hard to know how to support them and how to be there for them. And like you said, you know, we still have to have balance and uh, that whole dolphin parent.

And you talk also about the self-motivated kid and talking about balance, intrinsic motivat motivation and resilience. And I feel like these principles are still super important for children who are living with chronic pain and connective tissue disorders. How would you suggest people apply those principles to their children?

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. Um, I get a lot of requests for speaking, um, on these topics. Uh, and um, parenting through cancer, um, recently had one through hemophilia because, you know, these kids can bleed if they scrape their knee. And so how do you be that balanced parent? And, um, so EDS and hypermobility and chronic pain. The same principles apply, um, but recognize you're gonna be tempted, um, to be a bit of that jellyfish, um, because they're hurting.

And, um, and, um, [00:33:00] they may be like, you know what, the only thing that makes me happy is, um, YouTube or, and you know, that it's good for them to get outside and go for a walk and use their body. And, and so recognize the context of all the dopamine or distraction, um, the, those addictive things that are already tough for parents and that your temptation, um, is to be, to give in a bit too much.

Um, so to be a jellyfish for some of those things and your temptation to maybe to be a shark for things like physiotherapy and, you know, like I said, like stretching and making sure my kids were doing all this stuff and I was overbearing. So just kind of take inventory for a moment and, and take a moment and think about your child and say, Hmm, where might I be a jellyfish?

Where might I be a shark? Where could I balance? Where am I doing really well, right? So there's probably some areas you're doing great where you're, you know, whether it's diet or school or homework. Um, so take inventory first of all. Then what we wanna do is [00:34:00] start building towards self-motivation. Um, and I already gave some tools, um, that pod is really important.

Um, teaching them these three coping skills. They're also brain optimizers. It'll help them in school and anything. They're working on these same, these same three areas. Um, but try balancing, um, what I call autonomy, um, statements of autonomy with statements of commitment and support. And this really helps.

So, um, especially as a child gets older. So I'll give you an example. Um, you know, with my son who a little bit bendy, uh, I could be like, you know, don't forget, um, to do, you know, your proper stretching. Uh, and then I started to say. 'cause teenagers especially, um, really want independence and autonomy. I started to say, you know what?

I'm not gonna be there anymore. Um, you're going away for camp or you're going away on that trip. Really, this is all up to you. Like, um, [00:35:00] this is your choice. This is your body. Um, I can't make you, these are your decisions. And in fact, the more we say that to young people, the more they're likely to actually follow our advice.

It sounds like a paradox, but it's a psychological law. The more we push, the more pushback we get. So we want statements of autonomy. Um, it's up to you. It's your body, your choices. With statements of commitment and support. But remember, I will always be there. Um, you know, I, um, I'm your parent. Come to me if there's questions.

Um, if you don't feel comfortable with me, then talk to the doctor, talk to your physio. Um, just balancing being in that middle place. Um, and that's kind of the way we wanna scaffold them towards independence and adolescence and adulthood. Um, and that's a tool that you wanna use throughout, um, is that balance between autonomy and support.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I, I really like that it's up to you. And rather than. You know, like you said about if we're telling them [00:36:00] too much what to do and then they're gonna push back. So I think that's really brilliant, but then also the supportive statement that comes after that. Right. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. And I'll give you a quick tool. It's called the Importance Confidence ruler and I, especially for older people.

Older kids. Um. When we separate importance and confidence, we really understand what's blocking motivation. So I'll give you an example. Um, maybe your child, um, uh, you know, is an athlete or you know, is, is showing, um, a lack of interest in something they're really passionate about. Um, I'll just give an example of, you know, one of my kids in soccer and all of a sudden they just kind of stopped being interest, uh, interested.

And so I could ask, um, how important is it for you if you could wish upon a star, how important is it for you to play soccer and enjoy it and have fun? Um, and, you know, they may give that a number from a scale of one to 10. And you know, they may say, oh, well it's, you know, it's a seven or eight. I really love soccer.

Uh, and then you say, well, how confident are [00:37:00] you that you can continue to play soccer maybe without an injury, maybe without flaring your pain? Um, and that might be a lower number. So now the issue is confidence, not importance. And sometimes we. As parents put the focus on importance, like, oh, it's so good for you and you have friends and it's social and you get exercise.

It's not that they don't know that, it's that they're lacking the confidence. Um, you're, there's something underlying it. Um, and now you can work with with the issue. So it's called the importance confidence alert. It's in my books. Um, you can Google it. It's a really helpful tool, um, even if you are working with anyone on any particular topic.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: So that could work with adults, uh, as well and on. You could expand that to cover a wide variety of settings. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, exactly. I use it on my husband who has high cholesterol. Like how important is it for you not to have heart disease? Well, it's pretty important. Um, how confident are you that you can actually lower your cholesterol?

And that's a lower mark, [00:38:00] right? Given lifestyle and diet and food and some of all those challenges. So this comes from the world of motivational therapy. Motivational therapy is a very helpful evidence-based, um, tools that we use to motivate people. It comes from addiction research and, um. There's a way we know, um, that when we use, uh, conversation and words that show empathy, that show optimism, compassion, um, all of those tools that I showed you, this dolphin in between authoritative spot that we can move the needle even in highly resistant situations.

I use it all myself, um, when I'm really worried about something. Um, because I think with bendy body you can have what's called a bit of kinesia phobia, a little bit of fear of doing new things. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: When, when I first read about Kinesia phobia, I was writing my first article about EDS and pain, and I was still trying to sort out my own [00:39:00] situation.

And then when I read about Kinesia phobia, I was like, oh, that's exactly what happened to me. I am afraid to move because I've injured myself doing small things. So I feel like oftentimes too, and when there's a a name for something, it really helps us a lot. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Certainly, yeah. So I use this tool for pickleball.

Um, I asked myself how important is it for me to try an actual sport? I hadn't done it for 10 years. Um, I was super careful, uh, but my husband likes pickleball and some friends and um, you know, there's research that racket, sports help dementia and the brain and neuroplasticity, and it kind of looked. Not too bad.

And so, uh, I said, well, it's kind of important. Like I feel like I wanna, and when we try something new, our brain and entire nervous system gets the signal that we're safe, right? Uh, so I gave myself like a seven on that important scale with pickleball, but then I asked myself, how confident am I that I can play pickleball?

It gave myself a three. Um, and so [00:40:00] I re then I said, what would make my confidence better? And then I'm like, okay, if I wear my knee brace, if I wear my shoulder brace, if I take breaks, if I do beginner, um, change my shoes, like do all these things. Um, and I was able to kind of inch my way and I'm really enjoying it.

Uh, no injuries yet, and I feel I'm getting the benefits. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's great. That's fantastic. And a lot of parents will reach out to me and send me messages and talk about their children that have some kind of neurodivergence. So it might be autism, it might be a DHD, and then that makes it. Really challenging being in healthcare settings and or trying to, uh, communicate with them about their pain experience.

How would some of the things that we've already talked about be modified for, um, children that have conditions like that? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, um, that's a great question. Uh, neurodiversity is actually increasing. We're not sure why. There's this sense of it's getting better [00:41:00] diagnosed. Um, there's also connections to a lot of technology use, um, climate change, pollution.

Um, so a variety of reasons. Um, and, um, in my family there's neurodivergency and my daughter's got, uh, dyslexia, my son A DHD, and, uh, written output, dyslexia. And I'm sure I have a bunch of stuff never diagnosed, but, um, so it's really actually in my book I was looking for, there's a part here where I talk about the human body and brain.

Both need. Firmness and flexibility. Um, so I talked about myself. I was hypermobile and what I needed was more firmness, more muscle building, more strength. Um. The brain is the same. So if your child is attention deficit by definition, a bit more flexible in the sense they, um, are all over the place, constantly distracted, then you wanna bring in more firmness, right?

You wanna help bring them more structure. Um, their desks should be more kind of clear of distraction. [00:42:00] Um, help them get more structured and firm, um, in their bedroom, in their lifestyle, in their schedule. Um, and your parenting. If your child is more firm, let's say more rigid, like obsessive compulsive disorder or autism, um, where there might be some rigidity there, then you wanna bring in more flexibility, um, help them be more adaptable.

Um, kind of move away from perfectionism sometimes that when your child is neurodivergent, that freeze kicks in and you become a bit more controlling. Um, 'cause you don't want them to get hurt or have a bad experience, but you actually do want them to taste some healthy risk. So I think, um, it's about starting with a self-evaluation.

Um, and um, you know, what, what do I need to bring in this situation? Um, and I think having a bendy body can help. We can apply the same concepts to our body, right? We need a good skeleton, we need a good muscle strength, right? We need that, um, [00:43:00] flex. We need that, um, firmness, but we also need flexibility and adaptability.

And it's the exact same for our brains and the exact same for our parenting style. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love all that. And what about when they are in doctor's appointments? Because I have said in the past on this show that I really want children to try to speak, you know, speak up and speak for themselves. And there were some parents who were not happy with me saying that.

'cause they said, well, if our, if my child has autism though, and they are really, you know, not that verbal. Um, do you have any suggestions for how to help them navigate doctor's appointments? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, great question. I think, um, start first, um, just with a little bit of pre-conversation, um, uh, with your child and say, Hey, we're gonna Dr.

So-and-so, um, and, um, how would you like to do it? So just start there and, and not assume that they want you to speak for them or that they wanna speak. Um, so again, start with a curious, open-ended question. [00:44:00] Um. It's easy if it's very tempting to want to help and rush in. But the more we do things for our children, um, the less they're gonna build the skills and muscle and neuroplasticity to do it for themselves.

And ultimately we want them. And we know kids that do develop independent skills, even, um, small skills. Um, maybe they won't have independent living, but they can now speak for themselves more, um, have better confidence, better mental health, better critical problem solving. So, uh, it's tempting, but we do want to offer them to try first.

Um, and then, um, if they struggle, you give them a hint. Don't step in. Um, so let's say, say they say, um, doctor, I really wanna talk about, um, you know, my pain. And then they freeze. They don't know what to do again. We're gonna be tempted to say, okay, and it's this, this, and this. And, you know, and the doctor's on the clock.

But then that's [00:45:00] where you are guiding and you say, okay, and when we talked about it, you said it was more in your knee, um, and you notice that it's causing, so you give a hint instead of stepping in, you're guiding, um, not fully directing, um, until the point they, they say, okay, I've had enough. And then you can take it from there.

Um, but the human brain, I say it's like, um, trails in a forest. You have to walk on that trail to develop a pathway. So if your Jo child isn't speaking, they're not gonna develop that pathway. They're not independent problem solving. They're not gonna develop that pathway. And we know that in all forms of neurodiversity.

Um, we do wanna start building, um, those neural pathways towards, um, self-confidence and some independence. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And as you were saying that, I was reminded of a, of a small example of this when we took our three-year-old to Montessori our older child many, many years ago. Of course. And, and they said, okay, well the first thing they're gonna do is hang up their coat.

And my husband and I looked at each other like, [00:46:00] oh my God, he can't hang up his coat. He is only three, you know, and they look at you and they're like, no, they can hang up their own coat here. We're gonna teach them how to do it and then they're gonna do it. And I didn't realize before that, that by teaching your child how to do something like that for themselves, that that does build that confidence and it's so much better for them than if you do things for them that I think it's just, it's um, it's, we get into these habits, right, of just doing these things that oftentimes they quite possibly and.

Probably can do for themselves in many cases. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I've been there, you know, and as a parent, I was a working mom and with pain and chronic illness and there's the guilt and you wanna just kind of, you know, um, help them. And, um, but you know, in the dolphin parent, I say, uh, we're doing, when we do that, we're doing the wrong things, but for the right reason.

Right. And we have to separate that we love them, we wanna. Help them, but it's not helpful. And the metaphor I talked [00:47:00] about is, um, you know, the story. There's this, um, um, story and I don't know the origins of, you know, a butterfly that's struggling to get out of its cocoon. Um, and you know, this little child is watching this and wants to help the butterfly and breaks open the cocoon, but the child, the butterfly now can't fly.

'cause it was within that struggle of trying to break it, did it build the muscle and the nervous system to fly? Um, so we have to remember that, um, it might be the right intention, but this is where, uh, not letting our anxiety and over-parenting, um, ultimately over-parenting is actually under preparing children for the real world.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's a great example. I love that. And what about children? This was another listener, uh, question. What about children who are in pain and have had experiences with gas gaslighting or healthcare professionals that are lacking compassion? How can we help children deal with that? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. Um, and I've been [00:48:00] there, um, I think as a child I started having dislocations in my knee.

Uh, and you know, I was the fifth child of immigrant parents and my parents. Didn't even really know, they just thought I, you know, fell again. Um, and, uh, it was really hard to self advocate. And then I would say even as, um, uh, an adult. Um, and so we, I think just first of all, recognizing that sadly you're not alone.

If you're being judged, lacking compassion in a healthcare system, which isn't always great. Some doctors are amazing, um, at recognizing invisible disease, um, and having that compassion. So, and that's why podcasts like this are super important. So, so I think when we internalize it too much, um, it can really feel demoralizing, really feel depressing.

Um, so with your child, you wanna, again, use truth, compassion, optimism, say this is a reality and [00:49:00] you will. Um, you know, come into contact with a healthcare provider or a teacher or a coach that really isn't compassionate. Um, and that is the truth. Um, but let's have compassion for yourself. Um, let's debrief.

How did you feel about that? And actually compassion for others in the sense of, there's no excuse for being a jerk, but is it a lack of education? Is it a lack of awareness? Um, are they in freeze, fight, flight and just cycling through, um, the, their own brainstem? Because stress is the number one health epidemic.

So trying to, um, get outta judgment and when we understand that this is the world we live in and stress is very prominent all around us, uh, that can help. And then ending with optimism and being like, okay, what should we do here? Should we try again with this doctor? Should we find a different one? Uh, what were the parts that was helpful?

Was there anything beneficial? Take the good. Leave the rest. Um, I know you say that a lot in your podcast, like, um, it, it's really tough. Uh, and I [00:50:00] think when we're in pain and our children are in pain, we have to recognize sometimes where we're in that freeze fight or flight. We don't wanna, emotions are contagious and we don't wanna put that on our children.

Mm-hmm. Um, we do wanna try to give them the perspective of glass, how half full, even with those people that we may not feel deserve it, but ultimately for their wellbeing. Having that overall sense of compassion is helpful for them, um, as well as yourself. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, I, I love that. And if you've heard me talk about my story, which it sounds like you've listened to enough of the podcasts that you probably have.

When I have experienced gaslighting, thank God, not for a long time, but in the past when I did what I did was I did internalize that and I started doubting myself and being very non-compassionate to myself. Mm-hmm. So I think that's. Such an excellent point that, um, you know, how somebody else behaves, can be, can impact you in different ways.

You can make a choice to internalize that [00:51:00] or, or not. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. And it's a really important conversation when we even step back and think about the world we're in right now. I mean, there's three global trends, and I talk a lot about this. Um, um, when I speak on, and I have a program called The Future Ready Mind, um, which is kind of addressing these three global trends.

But trend number one is disease, um, burnout, stress, um, chronic pain. These are on the rise. And so, um, nobody wants it, but again, it can help build, um, those skills to manage the world because if it's not chronic pain, it's gonna be something else and someone else we know, right? The, the trend number two is disconnection, polarization.

It is getting harder to have conversations. It is getting harder to see eye to eye on many, many topics. Um, so if that's happening in your doctor's appointment. It's not fun, but it's also, um, a place to manage this global trend that you will encounter in other areas. And then trend number three is disruption and change.

Um, and that's where [00:52:00] we need adaptability. Uh, so, you know, the Future Ready Mind is managing these three global trends with using those three, um, brains, um, and practicing daily practices of downtime, self-care, connection, um, maintaining your social connections despite all that. And then being creative and adaptable, um, to manage the change.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay, and another listener question was how can we help kids who are angry about their medical problems? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, great question. Um, give them brain science. Um, this is where knowledge is power and, and say, Hey, I know exactly what's happening here. Um, you have pain, you have stress that triggers the brainstem.

Um, the brainstem, we are animals. We go into freeze, fight, flight freezes, anxiety, procrastination, obsessive thinking. Fight is irritability, anger, rage. Flight is distraction. You wanna check your phone, you want to eat sugar, you wanna, you know, whatever it might [00:53:00] be. So explain this, um, because pain will push you into all three.

Um, and some of us have a predominant, um, stress response. For me it was anger actually. Um, as well, so. Knowledge is power, first of all. Um, and when they see that, they're like, oh, maybe actually I don't hate my best friend who's actually been really nice and kind. Um, I just like don't know what to do with this anger and stress response.

So that's step one. Step two, teach them the three coping skills. The three brains, the three categories. 'cause not all kids like breathing, right? Um, but maybe they love their pets or maybe they love basketball or maybe, um, they love their playlist and music. Music is medicine. Um, I'm giving a big talk on that.

And, and so young people love music and help them arrange a playlist. Sometimes they say, have a playlist for all three of those categories. Music that helps you feel relaxed, music that helps you feel connected, and music that helps you feel, um, [00:54:00] excited and recreational. Uh, and so those coping skills are really helpful.

And then also remember maybe. Uh, professional help therapy. Um, someone that they can go to that's confidential, that can help them with cognitive distortions of catastrophizing or all of those things that can happen when we're unwell. Um, trauma, right? If they've been traumatized by the healthcare system or just with their own pain is scary.

Um, when I was a kid, I thought my, my leg would never work again 'cause my dislocations were so bad. Um, so sometimes professional help is really important and helpful and effective. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And what signs should parents be looking for for their child's mental health that maybe they do need to take that next step?

Dr. Shimi Kang: Right. Yeah. So humans, um, this is where I say sometimes we have to look outside ourselves to see ourselves. So, um, think of the pod, right? Um, humans are meant to play. We're meant to be socially [00:55:00] connected, and we're actually meant to rest and sleep. Um, so if your child. Is having dysfunction in any of those areas.

Um, troubles with sleep. They can't take a nap. They can't, they're, they're just unable to, uh, relax. Right? And that they're on edge. Um, there's a sign if they're getting disconnected from their friends, family, school, hobbies, school team withdrawing, um, again, another sign. And if they're not playing, um, um, uh, lack of interest in their hobbies and sports or recreational activities.

Those are all signs. Uh, and I wanna put the proviso, uh. This shouldn't be on tech, right? Um, if they're, if they're saying, oh no, I'm, you know, they're playing their video games and talking to their friends on tech to a certain degree 'cause that is part of this generation, but real life, um, is the key here.

Uh, so those are all signs and symptoms. Uh, and, uh, mental health does, um, affect one in two people on the planet, one in three, depending on where you [00:56:00] live. Um, the ages of, uh, 15 to 24 are peak times for mental health conditions. Um, and that number is getting less puberty and all the hormonal changes or major triggers.

So, um, and we are seeing a rise in all mental health conditions among young people. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that's a staggering figure. Um, that's. Wow. So this is such an important conversation. I hope that, I hope that everyone listens to this 'cause you've given us some great tools already. And you already mentioned the Future Ready Mind.

But I also wanted to ask you that, um, about the Future Ready Mind and that you say that having a future ready mind with a high CQ is the key to navigate an increasingly unpredictable world that can be made worse if you have a bendy body. Can you tell us more about that? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. So, um, you've all heard of iq.

So IQ came pre-internet, um, really important, generally left brain skill. Um, logic, technical knowledge. I went [00:57:00] to medical school. Um, I had to memorize everything, right? So IQ is still important, but then technology came and, um, you know, we didn't need to go to a book or mentor. We heard this term, eq, emotional intelligence, empathy, big picture thinking.

Also important. And then there's this false debate. Is it IQEQ? And it's really what's called cq, which is full consciousness quotient, all three brains, um, aligning with the five 21st century skills. And those are communication, uh, critical thinking, which is problem knowing how to ask the right question, problem solving, uh, creativity.

Um, so finding, um, uh, solutions, collaboration. Uh, and I say above all contribution in a world of AI and outsourcing, you wanna be, um, a team player. You wanna have that human connection. So having a bendy body, let's say, and this kind of invisible disease, we actually get. Really good at communication, [00:58:00] collaboration, critical thinking, um, creative problem solving, because there's no manual for us, right?

Um, everybody's different and we are actually building these CQ skills. It's a positive side effect for a bit of the, the pain and challenge that we all have. Um, but if we can see it that way, we're building, um, these 21st century skills through, um, this challenge. Um, and those, that skillset can be applied with many, to many, many things also in the world that don't have a manual.

There's no manual for how AI might be affecting the job market or for social issues that are coming up or whatever it might be. So. In that way. Um, you know, I feel that, uh, all those cliches, however you wanna see it, is what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, or God gives you what you can handle. Or, um, look at the silver lining, make lemonade outta lemons.

All of those cliches are pointing to the fact that [00:59:00] it's no fun. Um, it's, it's very challenging and stressful and difficult having hypermobility and chronic pain and a bendy body. However, um, there's an opportunity for a skillset that's gonna be very helpful, um, in this world that we're living in. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And the uncertainty, I, I really appreciate you talking about, you know, the, these skills in the 21st century because we of course have uncertainty that way.

And then a lot of people have medical uncertainty. They don't know, you know, what the next day is gonna bring. Their health feels very different from one day to the next. So do you have suggestions for, for that? Would that vary at all? Or is there anything that people can specifically be thinking of in that regard?

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, I'll give you two rhymes. Uh, neuroscience rhymes. That might be helpful. Um, so one is, I already mentioned, uh, where focus goes, neurons grow, but that's that cliche of think positive and it is so hard, right? I've been there where my life was a mess. I remember the day I applied for disability. It was a [01:00:00] terrible, terrible day.

'cause I had spent all this time with my career and I had three kids. Um, and they are expensive and I had to apply. Um, and, but you know. What was positive? It's like, okay, well, at, you know, for me at that time is, um, there was still some things that I could point to, but it was an effort to think about what they were.

Right. I could still walk, I couldn't walk well. Um, I still had a mind, although it wasn't working very well, and that's why I had to go off work. Um, so where focus goes neuron grows, make it a habit of a gratitude practice, um, a gratitude journaling, um, all of it. It's simple but not easy. You, you, when you're in despair, you're like, how is this gonna help me?

But it's going to keep your, your brain in the best shape possible, given your circumstances. The second is neurons that fired together, wired together. Um, so. Sometimes if you, your [01:01:00] problems, um, let's just take healthcare. If you've had bad experiences in clinical settings, know that clinical settings are a trigger.

Um, 'cause you've wired and fired walking into a hospital with not feeling heard or misunderstood. So you are already in freeze fight flight. You're already maybe, um, feeling angry and irritable. And so just knowing that, um, can help that next interaction. Um, neurons that fire together, wire together every time you went to physio.

Maybe you have more pain and that's why you have kinesia phobia. Um, and the good news is, is we can always unwind, right? We have that neuroplasticity. So micro habits, um. Trying, uh, to say, okay, I'm gonna go to physio, but instead of 45 minutes, I'm just gonna do five minutes. Um, 'cause I need to unwind this fear that I have.

I'm just gonna walk in, look around, um, maybe take some breaths, say hi to a few people. I'm not even gonna do anything because you [01:02:00] have to unwind, um, that association. So if we remember those things, I think we can use neuroscience to help us rehab, help us, um, get the most out of, uh, our situation regardless of how bad it is.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I often tell people if they're looking for a therapist that it's a lot like dating and it, whether it's a physical therapist or a, you know, a psychotherapist, it's a lot like dating. And so you might not find the right person on the first try, but I know some people who it seems like maybe they've been in therapy for such a long time and with the same person, and maybe it is still benefiting them, but how do you know if, like you said about the, uh, neurons, uh, that wire together?

That fire together, wire together, um, that is it possible that you might be talking too much about things that are rehashing things too much and that actually could be counterproductive? How? Yeah. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. Totally, totally. Um, I've been a psychiatrist for 25 years and I've had my own therapist, many different [01:03:00] therapists, and I refer to therapists.

And so what I tell people is the same metaphor. Try to get a dolphin therapist. Um, you don't want a shark who's like, you know, um, oh, you need to do this and get back to work or start your exercise. You're not ready. They're too prescriptive. A lot of doctors I say, can be very sharky prescriptive. A lot of therapists, in my opinion, can be very jellyfish.

They are overly permissive. They're not challenging any negative thinking habits. They're not pushing you forward. Um, they're kind of maybe. Over empathic, kind of like we see in, um, gentle parenting or some, you know, um, empathy driven styles that just go too far. And, um, you end up not growing, not learning.

Um, so you want a therapist who has that balance of, um, being shoulder to shoulder moving forward together. Think of those dolphins moving together. Um, and that is challenging you, right? So the [01:04:00] human brain, we love challenge our, uh, our feet face forward. We want to learn and grow, but we don't want stress, right?

So the shark therapist gives us stress, the jellyfish, not enough challenge. Really good metaphors. Think of your favorite teacher, your favorite teacher. Wasn't a jellyfish who just let you be and the classroom, you know, was a party. It might have been fun, but your favorite teacher is the one that challenged and pushed you.

And that's the same experience you want in therapy. You wanna leave feeling validated and heard, but also with some goal setting and also feeling you have growth. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love that analogy with the favorite teacher because I, my favorite teacher in, in school was my algebra teacher. I was in sixth grade, seventh grade, but went to high school for, for math.

And he was, he was very strict, but you knew exactly what was expected. And he might've been verging on shark, but, but I really liked him a lot. So, um, you, I totally agree with you about challenge. Yeah. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Well, you [01:05:00] can be an orca, right? The killer whale's, a dolphin. Um, so you can't be pretty firm. Um, but I apply that to everyone.

Your physiotherapist, your therapist, your doctor. Um, you want this. Um, ask yourself in the last year or six months, where have I grown? What goals have I achieved? Um, um, and then you'll know if you're with the right person. 'cause sometimes it's tempting to be in that jellyfish place 'cause you don't really have to do too much.

Um, but that's not your, that's not bringing out your best self. So, so it's a good to take inventory of all the people in your life. Um, and if you can ask them, Hey, I'm ready for some more challenge if you think there's a right fit. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay. Thank you so much for that. That's fantastic. And as you know, we end every episode with a hyper-mobility hack.

And of course you've already given us tons of fantastic tips. Um, but do you have another hack that you can share with us? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, the one I picked for this is the concept of play. Um, and I think we think of play as something you [01:06:00] do after work or, um, what, you know, rich people do or lazy people do. And you know what?

We don't have time to play when we're dealing with all this stuff. But, um, and this is why I picked the metaphor of dolphin and, and I talk so much about the human brain. Um, we are mammals, um, and all mammals in nature play. And what this means is exploring our environment, being comfortable with trying new and different things, um, being comfortable with mistakes.

The opposite of play is perfectionism. And perfectionism is on the rise partly because of social media and a consumer driven culture. So we have to get back to playing. Um, and uh, I had to play with my I Losano hypermobility, meaning I was a Western trained medical doctor. Um, and boy did I have to. Try new things.

I had to go to naturopaths, I had to go to chiropractors, I had to go to Osteos, I had to, I tried all kinds of stuff and [01:07:00] I used a play mindset. Some of it worked, some of it different. If I wasn't open, I wouldn't have experienced a lot of benefit from certain things. Some wasn't helpful. Um. You know, I had to, uh, do research, um, and, and stretch my thinking.

So I use play to help, um, overcome, uh, these years of chronic pain. And I went and got a neuromodulator implanted in my body, which kind of was play 'cause I didn't know anyone else who did it. So this concept is, um, really helpful to understand that play is how humans adapt. Um, it's what builds this prefrontal cortex, which is a part of our brain that is, um, important in problem solving, critical thinking, creative, um, solutions.

Uh, and so whether we play recreationally with our hobbies and interests or play in our work by putting our hand up and saying, Hey, I'll do that speech, or I'll do that thing I really didn't wanna do, um, or with our health [01:08:00] journey. Um, it's a really, really helpful concept to, uh, cherish. Um, and ask yourself, uh, what is my daily dose of play?

And, um, try. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Love it. I love that. And I have been doing this long enough that I can kind of anticipate some of the listener questions that I'm gonna get. And I have a feeling that some people are gonna write in and say, she mentioned neuromodulator a couple of times, I wanna know more about that. Are you willing to share even just a few sentences?

Um, because that's something that I think a lot of people might be asking more about. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so, uh, a neuromodulator unit, um, is, uh, well, I'll just explain what I have. I have a battery in my right hip, um, uh, and I have five electrodes. I have three down my spine, one behind my left shoulder and my left hip.

Um, because I broke my shoulder. I have severe chronic pain, that area. And then I have a large sacral, um, meningeal in, um, the base of my S [01:09:00] spine that's sitting on a bunch of nerves. Um, and I, my chronic pain was in. I couldn't manage it. Like I said, I was on opioids, I did ketamine, inpatient treatment. Um, I've done hundreds of prolo therapies.

Um, I have a biomass, uh, red light, all of it. Um, and I was very fortunate to have met, um, Dr. Giancarlo Barat, um, who was winning the Lifetime Achievement Award in pain, um, here in Vancouver. Uh, and my sister, who never gave up on me, hunted him down. Oh. Um, and we had a conversation and he was actually the first, um, neurosurgeon or or clinical person who looked at me and actually said.

We can actually help your pain. I'm like, really? Like help my pain. Um, and so he was one of the pioneers. Um, and spinal modulation is something that's more common where the electrodes are put in the spine. Um, and that one's, and my [01:10:00] understanding, I am not a neurosurgeon, but obviously more an invasive procedure 'cause you're going into the spinal cord.

This is keeping the electrodes outside of the spine, but putting it into targeted areas. It's technically off-label. I don't believe it's FDA approved. Um, so what happened to me is I had a trial, um, of three electrodes for two weeks, um, before to see if it helped my pain. It did significantly. And then I went for the, um, more, um, expensive and invasive, um.

Uh, procedure. And for me, I don't have American healthcare, so that's why it was expensive. Uh, so yeah, it was very, very helpful for me. Um, and I can't thank Dr. Barot enough. Uh, he's 74 years old, a pioneer in this area. Um, and I gave him a, a massive review. Um, but, but he, he's really, um, I think the guy to go to for it.

And he didn't pay me to say that, but yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. So it was really effective for you. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: For me, it was, [01:11:00] yeah, I got off ketamine. I'd been on ketamine almost daily for six years. Um, it wasn't even working. I was developing tolerance to it. I was worried about cystitis and, um, I wasn't sleeping well. I was on opioids, um, almost daily at that time.

Um, high dose anti-inflammatories, um, and still in pain. Um, so within a month of the neuromodulator, I was, uh, within six weeks I was off all prescriptions. Um, wow. Which was something I wanted to do. Uh, I do now take them as needed. Just the opioids tra set, low dose. Um, but because I have a cyst that's sitting on my nerves, my neck surgery, um, I actually heard about tethered spinal cord on your podcast, uh, and meningeal tarloff cyst removal again on your podcast.

And I pursued that and I'll be getting surgery for that this fall. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, okay. Yeah. Uh, as you know. Then I talked to my own neurosurgeon, Dr. Frank Feigenbaum, who's done. A lot, a lot of surgeries and, and, uh, he doesn't pay me to say that either, [01:12:00] but I was very happy with, with my outcome from, uh, from surgery with him, so.

Well, that's great. I really appreciate you sharing that additional information. 'cause I, I know that a lot of people are, are really suffering and, and it's hard because I have patients that come to me. I know that I see a biased population of people, right. I'm seeing people that are still in terrible pain.

So I might then have a bias against certain things because maybe they've tried those things and it didn't work. Um, but the people who tried them and then it did work, they're not gonna come to see me. So I really appreciate you sharing that personal experience. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah, I mean, I think I was so grateful to have people share with me.

Um, and I am there for peer support. So yeah, feel free to reach out. People ask me questions all the time. I've become more brave in sharing my personal journey. Um, I have talked about it in my books, uh, and on social media, but, uh, I'm just so grateful for this podcast and for what you've specifically done, Linda, for this conversation.

It's, um, it's one thing I [01:13:00] know in my small community I share with so many people, and knowledge is power, community is power, and you've really helped provide that for a lot of people. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, well thank you so much. That really means a lot to me. And, um, speaking of where people can learn more about you, uh, please tell us more.

I will of course, you know, add your books to my Amazon, uh, site, but can you tell us more about where people can find more information about you and your books and your work? 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Sure. Yeah. Um, so my favorite thing to do is keynote speaking workshops. Um, I speak at a lot of schools, parenting, um, organizations.

Um, now there's a big topic of technology and schools and homes. Um, so, uh, my website is actually the best place to reach me, uh, for that, or consults or coaching. Uh, that's www.drShimikang.com. Uh, I have a program for young people called Future Ready Minds, where we teach these key skills, uh, kids as young as six, um, in the school system and in camps.

Um, and that's future Ready [01:14:00] minds.com. Um, and my socials are all Dr. Shimi Kang, uh, and Future Ready Minds. So, um, I think I'm on almost all platforms, um, that, uh. But I'm moving more to TikTok 'cause I like the video style. Um, having said that, they're all addictive and we can't self-regulate. So be careful.

Um, and use it for healthy tech. Right. I say use tech to consume healthy information. Stay away from the junk, like the random, like eating a bag of chips, sugar scrolling, and avoid the toxic stuff. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so hard and it's so great that you are doing that kind of social media work and I really appreciate the kind words that you said about the podcast.

'cause of course we need people like us who are trying to share this credible information. I was interviewed yesterday by somebody for, um, for a big publication and they were asking me questions directly from TikTok videos that they're like, I heard this and this and this. Is this true? Um, and it's hard 'cause there are a lot of people out there with a lot of followers [01:15:00] saying things that mm-hmm.

You know, it's hard for people to know. Yeah. 

Dr. Shimi Kang: Yeah. And I think we are in the age of misinformation. Um mm-hmm. And what I love about your podcast is you absolutely try your best to be incredible guests and ultimately, um, it's the listener that has to be responsible for, um, what they decide. Um, because, um, you know, right now, uh, there's so much information out there and, um, it.

It's this balance between, um, obtaining information and then really figuring out how it applies to you. Um, and so yeah, we need podcasts. Um, we need uh, um, social media influencers. That's how we get accessible information. But it's up to us to decide is that healthy for us? Is that like junk, like a soundbite just getting me to have shock value, um, and get all angry.

So, um, 'cause that is rage farming and a lot of influencers do do that. Um, and kind of trying to attract the fear, um, and [01:16:00] saying, you know, all, all western medicine and all MDs are, you know, um, completely biased. And I have offense to that 'cause I try really hard for my patients. Um, and, and just recognizing that's a bit of the world we're in.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, this has just been an incredible conversation and I don't, I don't know how much you believe in synchronicity, but the timing of this was also really perfect. So, uh, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I know that you're really busy and I'm just so grateful to you for this wonderful conversation.

Dr. Shimi Kang: Thank you. Um, thanks, uh, to your podcast, um, background. I know the human content team, uh, you're doing a great job and just keep up the great work. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, thank you. Yes, they are such a great support and, uh, thank you so much again, and we'll see you next time.

What a great conversation with Dr. Kang. She gave us so many. Wonderful pearls and tips and things that we can all try, [01:17:00] whether we're in pain, we have a child in pain, we wanna work on motivation. Um, there might be some addiction. 'cause it sounds like we all are suffering from some kind of addiction nowadays between sugar and tech and all these other things in our lives.

So I hope you found that as helpful as I did, and I wanna thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Bendy Bodies. With the Hypermobility MD Podcast, you can help us spread the word about joint hypermobility and related disorders by leaving a review and sharing the podcast. This helps raise awareness about these complex conditions.

If you would like to meet with me one-on-one, you can check out the available options on the services page on my website@hypermobilitymd.com. There are options for coaching as well as professional mentorship. You can also find me Dr. Linda Bluestein on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, or LinkedIn at Hypermobility MD you can find human content.

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