Dancing Stronger: Smarter Training for Bendy Bodies with Jennifer Milner (BEN 165)

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Jennifer Milner: [00:00:00] I have one dancer who had panic attacks every time she went to on a certain day to dance class. And it turned out that that day's dance teacher was very verbally abusive to the students in general. That was just her teaching style. And this dancer was, you know, the canary in the coal mine that was like, this does not feel good.

I can't go. I can't take it.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome back every bendy body to the Bendy Bodies podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Linda Bluestein, the Hypermobility md. A Mayo Clinic trained expert in Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and hereditary disorders of connective tissue dedicated to helping you navigate hypermobility and live your best life. I am so thrilled to bring Jennifer Milner back to the show today.

As you probably know, Jennifer is a Pilates trainer and ballet coach who specializes in working with dancers and athletes with hypermobility. [00:01:00] She has trained Olympic medalists and dancers from New York City Ballet, ki of Ballet, Royal Ballet, and more. Her ability to address biomechanical imbalances and technique dysfunctions in a practical strength training way has made her a sought after guest speaker for dance schools and companies and her wide and varied health and dance science background, along with her dance experience and her own encounters with injuries.

Give Jennifer a unique perspective on getting and maintaining a strong, healthy body at peak performance level. You also probably know Jennifer as the amazing original co-host of the Bendy Bodies podcast. I'm so excited to speak with her today because I have so many questions that I've been wanting to ask for such a long time about Hearst's perspective on hypermobility and dance.

As always, this information is for educational purposes only, and it's not a substitute for personalized medical advice. Stick around until the very end, Sue. Don't miss any of our special hypermobility hacks. Here we go.

Okay, so I am back with Jennifer Milner and I [00:02:00] have to just kind of like calm myself down 'cause I'm so excited to be chatting with Jennifer today. I got a, uh, you, you commented one time when you and I were interviewing Miss America. You were like, oh my God, you were fan grueling. So much. I'm so excited to be with you today.

I just like have to kind of take a breath, calm myself down, but thank you so much for coming to chat with me. 

Jennifer Milner: Of course, I think this is just, um, for me it's just an excuse to get to chat with you because we now have to schedule it on our calendars to be able to sit and catch up. I know, 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I know, right?

It's so, uh, it's something that we need to do more For sure. So this was long time coming. I've so wanted to do like a follow up with you. Um, of course, we had so many great conversations in the first few seasons of bendy bodies, and we talked about, you know, stretching and overstretching and what to do as a, as a dancer, but I feel like an updated conversation is desperately needed.

I know your knowledge continues to evolve and you continue to gain experience from working with all these hypermobile dancers. Right. [00:03:00] So let's start really broad and can you tell me what you are most worried about in dance today? 

Jennifer Milner: Well, first I think that it's a, it's a really exciting time to be in the dance world.

Um, so I don't wanna negate that. Um, but at the same time, it's a really kind of uncertain time in the dance world. Uh, I don't know that we ever really recovered from COVID. Right? Uh, and the pandemic having everything shut down. There was this backlog of dancers who were just about to move into the professional arena, um, and then had to wait.

And so we, we have these dancers who are still trying to find a job, you know, and, and then of course with the pandemic also, um. I don't think audiences have, have completely come back still. And I know for sure that especially these days, um, funding is, is a huge problem and there's a lot of job insecurity, um, in, in the dance world right now.

And that causes a lot of, um, uh, stress and emotions on [00:04:00] top of what's already, you know, a, a pretty uncertain career anyway. So, so I think, I think we're really facing that hurdle of, um, uncertainty of how supported the arts are gonna be by the, by the, our society in general, as well as, um, as still trying to find jobs for all the dancers who, who are trying to get them.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. No, those are excellent points. And, and on the flip side, what are you most optimistic about? 

Jennifer Milner: Well, as I said, it's a really exciting time to be in the arts as far as the creativity and the, um, the direction that dance. And when I talk about dance, my expertise is, is ballet and sort of your Western European based dance forms.

Um, so there, there is so much innovation that is going on. We're seeing a lot more opportunities for some really incredible young choreographers and young dancers who are bringing their cultural backgrounds into traditional ballet and jazz and contemporary forms and really informing the works [00:05:00] in incredibly new and exciting ways.

So I think there's an opportunity to see a lot of artistic growth in the dance world. Um. Even as we're struggling to find, to find the funding to, to make that happen, but mm-hmm women are being encouraged to take men's classes. Uh, men are having some choreography set on them on in point shoes, and it's amazing and strong and fierce.

And so we're really starting to challenge and push dancers and, and push their bodies in really exciting and, and different ways. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I think some people think of art and dance as being, um, unnecessary or superfluous, but, but to me it's part of what makes being a human worthwhile. I mean, I, you know, I never feel more alive really than when I'm sitting in the audience watching a fabulous performance and it just.

It makes me feel things that I don't feel in another way. So to all the people who, because I get these messages [00:06:00] sometimes on social media, you know, why are you so supportive of dancers? And it's like, number one, they are incredibly hardworking athletes and they don't dance. I've also had people ask me this question, you know, they don't dance for the money, believe it or not.

I've had people ask me question. They do not. They, they d they dance despite the money. Um, and they're incredibly hardworking, yet they don't often have the kind of support that most athletes have, and yet they, they provide something to us as those that are fortunate enough to be able to watch that just, you know, brings out emotion, makes us feel human and alive and bring, bring us such incredible joy.

If it's that, if that's the kind of thing that you love, which, you know, I obviously am one of those people. Um, so it's, it's important. I think that's the other, you know, really important message is that, that these are not. You know, extras that of course I know from a funding standpoint it's always viewed that way, but, but art is so important for life in, in general, all the different forms of art.

So you have been working [00:07:00] with hypermobile or bendy dancers for quite some time now, and I'm curious how you're thinking about hypermobility has evolved over this period of time. 

Jennifer Milner: Well, uh, I think my, my thinking about hypermobility has sort of been, uh, a part of like the dance world in general's journey with hypermobility as well.

Um, I didn't realize that I had issues that all kind of tied up within the, um, hypermobility spectrum as a dancer. And it wasn't until I started, uh, teaching on the other side of the table, uh, and working with Hypermobile dancers just because they came in and at first it was very few dancers who had hypermobility, I think largely because, um.

A lot of the younger hypermobile dancers didn't have the support they needed to succeed as a professional. So at first I was working with, oh, they've got a crazy back man. Their ankles are so wobbly, you know, their knees keep dislocating. How can we make 'em stronger? That sort of thing. Um, and then I had a dancer come to me when she was, I think [00:08:00] 14, uh, it was about 2010.

And she, her mom said she has this thing called EDS. Have you ever heard of it? And I was like, no. Uh, and that was my first introduction to it. I started reading into it and diving deeper into it and was like, oh my gosh. And so really trying to address the whole body with that. Um. And of course, you know, once you start seeing those things, you can't unsee them.

Right? And suddenly I'm seeing like this, what looks to me like an epidemic of dancers with these issues. And I think partly because I was starting to work with younger dancers, um, I was working with more pre-professionals and so I was seeing more of them before they sort of self-selected out of the process because of injuries and stuff.

Uh, so I started seeing a lot of them and, and it was for me, this, oh my gosh, what do we have to do to stabilize them, to keep them healthy, to, to make them strong so that they can have a fighting chance to, um, to compete as a professional and to try to, to have the career that they want. And then as, as I started seeing the support coming in and being more accepted, uh, teachers start sending me [00:09:00] notes saying, can you please help her?

I've noticed she has weakness in this. Can you help with that? And these, it's perfect when the studios start working with the people outside the studio. And as I started seeing that, now I feel a little more freedom to, to really try to encourage them to. To work through their whole range of motion. I don't feel like I have to single-handedly hold them back, because if I don't, no one else will.

Um, and people will just completely take advantage of the crazy things their body can do. Mm-hmm. I feel like as people understand it more and respect it more, I can start to strengthen their full end range and help them, like, make the most of their instrument because they have more information. They know how to speak up for themselves and, and the studios and choreographers do as well.

So I think I've sort of come through that this is not a real thing. Oh my gosh, it's everywhere. How do I triage it to, Hey, we've got a firm foundation. How can we, how can we help and, and make it even more amazing. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: It's so important that a dancer have multiple [00:10:00] members of their team that are working on this.

And I think another really, really common misconception is that there are no dancers who are dancing, who have EDS or a connective tissue disorder of, of some sort of hereditary disorder, of connective tissue or HSD, and that's absolutely untrue. I, I met with a professional dancer the other day who doesn't have a formal diagnosis yet, but I will be seeing her as a patient next week.

And the things that she has been through, I was blown away and she's dancing professionally. Mm-hmm. You know, you're like, holy cow. I mean, a lot of people think, oh, their life must be perfect. And while they're, of course, at a different functional capacity than somebody who is spending all day in bed because they have such incredibly serious complications that they cannot be upright at all and have other problems going on.

So, I, I don't mean any disrespect to those people. Um, but at the same time, I think it is important to recognize that things might look better on the outside than they actually are. I have a dancer that I've seen as a coaching client, and now I'll be seeing her [00:11:00] next week as a patient. And when she told me her story, the things that she was born with, um, the things that she has had to deal with, how she's almost died, um, and like for real, uh, in critical care.

Septic shock. Um, and, and some of these things that are like, oh, okay, these are some very unique things that are red, red flags for sure. So I think it's just important for people to be aware of that because that's a really, really common misconception that dancers who are dancing must be fine. And, you know, dancers I think are very good at adapting.

And of course they have to fake it, right. You have to make it look easy. So they're used to making things look easy. So, um, and I wanted to share, 'cause you were talking about how you first started doing this, and did you say 2010 was when you first met this first dancer? Is that right? The first person who had the EDS diagnosis Yes.

Was 2010. Yeah. So I just wanted to quickly share for people who, who may not know, Jennifer and I first connected in 2017. Mm-hmm. Jennifer read an article that I wrote and [00:12:00] she sent me this incredibly, um, well-written email. And I was like, I definitely have to talk to this person. So we had a phone conversation that lasted for what, like three hours?

Yeah. Yeah, it did. Um, in the summer of 2017, and then we ended up presenting together at the I Adams Conference, the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science, um, you know, shortly there thereafter, and then doing so many Bendy Bodies podcast episodes together. So, uh, we've, and we've presented together since then at I Adams, also on Neurodivergence and dancers.

So we've gotten to do lots of great projects together. And of course I've also helped on your platform. We have lots of great videos and programs and webinars, and so we'll have to be sure to talk about too that too, um, a little bit later. So I just wanted to share that background for people who, who don't know that that's how we met, and that's why I'm so excited to be talking to you.

I wanna get you advice for dancers. Um, what are the most essential things that you want pre-professional dancers to know? [00:13:00] 

Jennifer Milner: Alright, uh, three, three things that I wish pre-professional dancers knew. Um, number one, um, your tricks do not define you. So you do not have to, to do the tricks and, um, and always be the person in the center, in the bird of paradise or the scorpion or, you know, rolled up in a ball backwards, um, to have worth for your company or for your studio or anything like that.

Uh, whatever tricks you have, if you can do them healthily and, uh, without danger to yourself, that's great. Um, but they are not the full sum of who you are as a dancer. So do not feel like that is all that, that is all of who you are. Um, the second thing I always want pre-professional dancers to know is that your aches and pains are real.

Uh, and you may feel like, um, you're a baby or you're just a, you know, prima donna or diva or whatever. People might say to you, um, if you are [00:14:00] always talking about aches and pains, but if you have hypermobility, and especially if you have a hypermobility disorder, connective tissue disorder, there are going to be more aches and pains.

You are going to experience more joint pain and there is a different healing time for, uh, tendon and ligament issues. So. What you are feeling is real. And uh, I do not want you to feel gaslit about that, and I don't want you to feel like, um, everybody else in the room is fine, so I should be fine and I should just keep going.

Your pain is real and don't let anybody convince you differently. And then, um, the third thing I really want people to understand is you're gonna have a different timeline as you work as a dancer for getting things into your body than your peers. I always talk about when, when you're working with hypermobility, you wanna go slow and low, so you're constantly gonna be going back to, uh, the basics and your technique, your liaise and your tanis, and making sure you're doing them correctly and not just, um.

Sort of skipping [00:15:00] through it in order to be able to get to the result that people want. Um, you can't push yourself as much. You can't run as many, um, you can't run through snow as many times as everybody else does without perhaps getting injured. So. Mm-hmm. As, or, and even nobody should be running it as many times as they probably do.

Mm-hmm. But be patient with yourself. Um, I've never met a dancer who regretted waiting a year to go on point. Um, of course they regretted at the time when all their peers were going on point, but if they had crazy banana feet and they needed an extra year to get better proprioception and better strengthen their feet, um, it served them so well later down the line.

So I really encourage you to understand that your timeline is gonna be your own and to not feel that, um, stress of, well, I'm not like everybody else. I must, there must be something wrong with me. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love all of that. And of course, you and I interviewed Moira McCormick in that fabulous, very, very first episode of Bendy Bodies back in February of [00:16:00] 2020, so, so long ago.

And, uh, she talked about that, how yeah, with really, really talented dancers, if they have, you know, really, really flexible feet and ankles, that she actually holds them back and puts them up on point later. Mm-hmm. And I believe Lisa Howell later on, I think that was episode nine or five or something, was with Lisa Howell, um, and she told us basically the same thing that, yeah.

Yeah. And we talked about how it could be challenging as a studio owner, because sometimes parents get so frustrated with that message that they might send their kid to a different studio Uhhuh. So, you know, what do you say to parents who, if a parent's listening and says, well, my kid really, really wants to go up on point, so I might take them to a different studio, what would you say to that parent?

Jennifer Milner: I would say I completely understand. I work with a lot of dancers. I work with some, a few eight year olds on the way, all the way up through, you know, people in their forties and fifties and. I understand how hard it is when you don't go on point [00:17:00] with your peers or when, uh, or the flip side of it is that the studio wants you to, to put your daughter on point when they're eight or nine, and you think, well, I'm not sure she's ready yet.

I don't know what I should do about that. But your, your daughter really wants to stay there and doesn't want you to move them and the studio's putting all that pressure on you. Um, I, there are some really great objective guidelines out there. I believe the Harkness Center for Dance Injuries put it together.

Um, that is a sort of pre point assessment. Um, I know Leslie Howell does something as well and, um, I think it's called Point Safe also that, that Kendall does. Um, and there are, so there are some really objective things out there and, and many of them are free. Um, I put together a, a pre point assessment based on the Harkness Center.

Um. List as well. And I will take my dancers through it and say, you can't do this. This is isn't working. This isn't where it should be. This looks great. You know, and it's really [00:18:00] helpful I think for studio owners to have that and be able to say, here are objective reasons why your dancer is ready to go on point.

Or Here are subjective reasons why your dancer is ready on to go on point. Like their feet are so pretty, you know? Um. It's really nice to have that objective list of yes or no. They have beautiful feet, but they can't do three single leg releve. They have mm-hmm. They have really strong feet. It may not be the highest arch, but they do pass this, uh, range of motion tests so we know it would be safe for them to be on point.

So if parents feel like their daughters should be on point and they don't think that the studio's putting them on at the right time, get that assessment and find someone to help you go through that assessment. And then you can break it to the studio and say, help me understand what's holding my daughter back.

But it might be that after that assessment, you find a couple of things that you're like, oh, okay, I see. This is why. And I, I encourage studios to do it again so they can give it to the parents and say, here's why we did or didn't. Here's the things we can work on. We're gonna work on them in class. [00:19:00] Um, but having some sort of objective assessment is really gonna help you at both ends of the spectrum to figure out if my child is ready to go on point 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: and, 

Jennifer Milner: and 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: safely.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And then I also wanted to circle back to the comment that you made about snow and, and you know, how many repetitions of snow that you're gonna do. So as a pre-professional dancer, you know, of course you're in a different position if you're, if you're Skylar Brandt and you know, you've got, you know, kind of some little nagging injury, you can probably say, I'm gonna mark this today because, you know, you're Skylar brand.

Right. Right. But if you're a pre-professional dancer, um, do you have any suggestions for dancers who feel like, you know, I, I can't really take that risk. I can't really say that I can't do snow 10 times in a row, or whatever the case might be. So do you have any suggestions for them in how to handle that?

That's 

Jennifer Milner: such a good question, and I think. I think the silver bullet for most [00:20:00] of the dance world is communication. Mm-hmm. I think we communicate poorly with our dancers. I think that the dancers don't feel comfortable communicating with the staff. I think the parents feel uncomfortable communicating with the teachers.

The teachers don't communicate with, like, I think on all sides of it, open communication would be so helpful. And so for me, um, if we can establish a layer of communication with the teachers, even as a pre-professional and, um, be able to be honest and clear about what's going on when it's small things, and just say, just wanted to let you know, I'm coming into class today.

My ankle feels a little funky. I've been cleared to dance. I just am gonna go a little slow and warm it up, you know, a little bit. As you do those things, then you are gonna bank some goodwill with the studio or with the teachers so that they understand that when you come to them and say, Hey, I cannot do this.

Run through. I need to sit down and also I will be okay tomorrow. I'm trying to trade this off in order to [00:21:00] do this. Um, then you will built a little bit of goodwill with them. Obviously with younger dancers, the parents are going to be involved in advocating for their child and, and teaching their child how to have those conversations as well too, as they get into the older teenage years.

But I think that there's a way to have that respectful conversation as long as it's not the first time they're hearing about it. If you've been hiding this injury and all of a sudden it's two days to the performance and they want you to run it 10 times, are you just, are you just being lazy? So that's what sometimes people claim.

Are you just trying to get home early to do your homework? You know, teachers are sometimes suspicious, not necessarily for good reason, um, but if you have already told them and already sort of laid it out for them, the, the type of worker that you are and the way that you handle small injuries and big injuries and you know, that sort of thing.

I think that there's room to be able to have that conversation, even as a pre-professional. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: What about professional dancers? How would this advice change, if at all, for professional dancers? 

Jennifer Milner: For professional dancers? You [00:22:00] know, my advice is get a warmup. Like figure out, figure out your maintenance routine.

Mm-hmm. And I, I recently released an entire workshop for dancers. That's like everything outside of the studio. How do you plan your season? How do you decide to do that? Because I feel like it's the thing that's most neglected. Mm-hmm. By professional dancers. How do you plan your warmup? What's so important about a warmup?

How do you like, make it work? How do you figure out how to have the days where you can push yourself and the days where you need to hold back? Mm-hmm. Figure that out. Get your schedule going, get your routine going. Make your prep your meals on Sunday so that you, you can kind of cruise through the week.

Um. Understand what works for your body. Cold plunge, sauna, regular massages, whatever it is that helps your body on a regular basis with your inflammation and the aches and pains, you know, build your pit crew. For me, it's all about do the preparation and do all the work that is not just, um, that [00:23:00] is not just the work in the studio.

And I think that's the one thing that's not really taught in dance studios is how do you prepare your life? How do you live as a, as a company dancer outside of the studio? Um, and so that's what I encourage. That's my biggest advice to dancers is figure out what you're gonna do outside of it. Your warmup meals, sauna, everything.

Figure out how to live outside the studio to support you as a healthier dancer and inside the studio. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And if you figure that out when you're. Doing well then you can adapt it if things are not going as well. But you've already kind of figured out some baseline things that that help you. So I think that's really good.

And then what about, especially younger dancers who believe that the bendier the better? And you already kind of addressed this when you said, you know, your tricks don't define you. And I, and I love that and I tell people all the time, also keep in mind that your tricks might not hurt now, but they might start hurting later.

And if you just wait until it is painful to stop doing your trick, it might not be that the pain will go away. So just, it's really, really important to, to be aware of [00:24:00] these tricks that can be really, really harmful in the long run. And so this, you know, modern trend towards more and more photos on Instagram, which of course I love Instagram.

Um, but it's tricky, right? So what do you say to this, the bendy or the better, you 

Jennifer Milner: know, thing, that trend that we're seeing. I don't think bendy is good or bad. I think it's just different. I think it's just one facet, one type of body. And uh, the trend that we see on social media is because, for me, because we're able to capture those lines and capture that one moment where people can just lean into their shoe, they can fall over, they can do it, but what's the next line and what happens after it?

Mm-hmm. And um, the struggle that I see with my bendy dancers, they can make a beautiful line. Can they hold it? Can they move to a jump? Can they pirouette like these, these more, um, these more three-dimensional moves they have a lot of trouble with. And those Gumby bodies really, really struggle. [00:25:00] And uh, you know, you and I have shared some dancers that when they're 14, 15, I'm like, I don't know if this is gonna pull itself together.

Yeah. But they stick with it and they go really slow. And now they have these gorgeous lines, but they have the strength to go with it. So. I think work with the body that you have, um, trying to force hyperextension or get some sort of artificial, uh, hypermobility is not healthy. That's not the way your body is built.

And, um, I don't think will serve you well moving forward. Learn to love the body that you are with, and the body that you are with will take care of you and, and serve you well. Um, some of our most amazing dancers, you know, Tyler Peck and, uh, Mario Ellen Nunez, they, they are not hypermobile. They're super strong and they've got beautiful feet and, and beautiful legs.

Um, but they're not crazy extension back, you know, floppy people. [00:26:00] Um, but you can't take your eyes off of them. So I don't think that, I don't think pushing yourself into a different body is going to make you a better dancer. I think figure out your body and, um, and work with it in the, in the best way possible, in the healthiest way possible.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I'm thinking as well of some of the people that you and I have shared in common and how that slow and low approach is so much more successful than burning out when you're young. I've worked also with dancers who are, you know, 15 years old and they're retired from dance and you know, of course it's always hard to predict exactly what could have happened if things had been done differently, but it just breaks your heart to see somebody who loves to dance and isn't dancing anymore at such a young age because they're in pain all the time.

And you know, they were the one that was getting all the, you know, Gumby awards and up in the front and yeah. So it's, I think so important to be sometimes really pulling back and saying, okay, I am not, like, when we talked to be Ann Sisk, [00:27:00] remember when you and I interviewed Beck Ann Sisk? I think that's a great example of somebody talking about, you know, uh, and, and working with Mele Wiz and she was, you know, her teacher and saying, lower your leg, she.

You're, you're gonna be able to get your leg up there later. Just lower your leg and let's work on your strength and um, and everything. So, um, and speaking of, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see dancers make? 

Jennifer Milner: Um, biggest mistakes that dancers make? First of all, um, know yourself and as we were just saying back there, um, it's about understanding.

You know, you're, you're not going to be Tyler, you're not going to be, um. Mariella, you're there, there are already those people out there. So don't try to be those people. Um, know who you are and what you have to offer, and you're gonna be a much more interesting and authentic dancer when you walk in the room.

Um, and I think a, I see a lot of dancers make that mistake where they're like, well, they really love this, so I'm gonna try to be this. They love that person being that way. [00:28:00] Um, but you will not be Skyler Brandt. She is very cool. She's very quirky. She is an amazing dancer. Um, and she already does Skyler Brandt really well.

Yeah. So first of all, know yourself. Second of all, believe yourself. Learn to trust yourself and your instincts. And I think, um, this goes back to what I was saying about when you, um, are injured or those aches and pains are real. Believe your instinct here. If your instinct says, Hmm, I'm not sure I should do that.

My shoulder feels wonky, but I'm sure they wouldn't give me that lift if they, if it wasn't safe. Right? Believe yourself, trust that and, and start to develop that like, inner voice that says, Hey, that's not okay. That's not healthy for me. Believe yourself when you're injured. Um, the, the dance community absolutely does gaslight dancers and say, it's not too long.

Um, you don't need a break. Um, you're fine dancing the day after you traveled. You know, as much as as can be gotten away with, it's going to [00:29:00] happen. So you can say it, it is too long. I do need a break after I travel, I can't run it again. Uh, finding out ways to, to respectfully be able to speak up on that.

Um, and, and all of that just comes from, from knowing yourself and knowing, um, knowing that you, that you. Knowing inside what feels right and what feels wrong. Um, and then third, I would say, um. If you need help, ask for it. I, I think dancers, I think dance can be very isolating. And I've talked to several dancers who have recovered from, from extreme eating disorders and said, I had no idea there were other people like me out there.

And I feel like we talk about it in the, in the dance medicine and dance science community all the time, but it still feels like, oh gosh, that's something that's talked about but not discussed within. So if you're struggling with an injury, if you're struggling with mental health, whatever it is, um, talk about it.

Um, don't be afraid to get help. [00:30:00] And that goes for, um. Foe turns. If you're struggling with your foe turns, ask someone for coaching on it. We don't have to be perfect, and we don't have to present ourselves as perfect. And if you are struggling with your hyperextended knees and can't figure out how to control them and make them work, it's okay to ask for help.

You're not being, um, you know, ungrateful for these beautiful legs, right? You are trying to be stronger at it, and it doesn't make you look weaker. It doesn't make you look dumb. It doesn't make you un look unteachable. It makes you look smart and it makes you look like you understand that you need help and it needs to be beyond what, what you yourself can do.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And what about choreography? If you're, if you're working with a choreographer, and again, it depends on the level, of course. Sure. If you're pre-professional versus professional, but you're working with a choreographer and we all want interesting choreography, of course, but if they're. Giving you something and you're like, uh, I think that's really gonna cause damage to my body.

I've, I've seen, I've, I've been to some shows where the original cast [00:31:00] is like all hobbling around on crutches and things because they were got so injured trying to do this new work. And it's, I would imagine extremely challenging because you don't necessarily know like how far the body can be pushed and what can be done, you know, safely or at least safely in CA certain number of repetitions versus what is outright dangerous.

So do you think that choreographers should be keeping more in mind, um, the fact that a lot of dancers are hypermobile and might be at risk for, like you said, dislocating their patellas and other, other injuries? Or do you think we're okay in that regard? 

Jennifer Milner: I think that as choreographers get to pick their dancers, if they're picking them for a certain look, you know, a choreographer comes into a company and they watch company class and they say, I wanna work with these 10 dancers.

Um. They should be able to tell from that. And I would hope that choreographers would start to keep that in mind as they're choreographing. Um, I also encourage choreographers to [00:32:00] go around the room and say, Hey, everybody tell me your stuff. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? I picked you 'cause I saw something in class.

Let's talk about it. Um, and you know, as you get more experienced, you start to know what's coming in to know what to expect. Um, I work with a dancer at a major ballet company and she has, um, she has some contemporary pieces coming up that are, um, like flamenco based or tango based ballet, um, that she has seen videos of and she has super hypermobile shoulders.

So we're having to start to strengthen her arms for the stuff that goes around the head and all of that so we know in advance and so we know we can do some work coming up to it. Um, I think that the dancers can speak up and say, I'm having trouble doing this step without feeling. Um, insecure in my shoulder socket.

Can you help me out? Can you watch me and tell me what I'm doing wrong? And then it doesn't sound like you've choreographed a bad move. Yeah. Um, it sounds like I can't make this work. What [00:33:00] am I doing wrong? And can you help me with that? Right. I think you can also, if you're at a company, um. Talk to the PTs and you know, when I worked at, um, at, at New York City Ballet, I worked for their physical therapy department.

Um, the PTs would come in and watch sometimes and just see what choreography is being put on the dancers. And I think it's okay to say at the PTs, I'm really struggling. I, this is not feeling good on my body. Can you please come in and watch? And then the PTs can help you with it, but they can also go to the choreographer and say, Hey, listen, this is causing a lot of stress on such and such a body part.

Is there any way you can modify it? And it's coming from a medical professional and not, you know? Mm-hmm. Of course that's collaborations in big companies where they have the luxury to have funding like that. But I think again, it's all about communication and, and I do know dancers that will advocate for themselves and speak up and say, maybe you wanna give this move to someone else.

Maybe you can help me understand how to do it. Um, and then I think there are dancers that don't [00:34:00] speak up and then usually get injured because of it. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Love that answer. That's so important. Okay. This is such a great conversation. I think we're gonna take a quick break here. When we come back, we are going to talk about stretching because that is such a hot topic and how to optimize flexibility and advice for parents and so much more.

We will be right back.

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Okay. We are back with Jennifer Milner and I am dying to ask you when it comes to flexibility. Of course something that every dancer wants and they probably know what they think limits their flexibility, but what actually limits flexibility in most people. Of course, of course there's gonna be individual variation, but 

Jennifer Milner: Yeah, of course, of course.

Um, flexibility is a tricky subject 'cause a lot of people equate flexibility with hypermobility as you know. Right. And just for the listeners, flexibility is not the same thing as hypermobility. Mm-hmm. You can be very flexible and not hypermobile. You can be hypermobile and not flexible. Mm-hmm. Which astounds people sometimes.

Um, but when we're talking about hypermobility, a lot of times it's joint based. Um, and [00:36:00] just like a greater range of motion than usual in the joint. That's the base answer that I learned from Dr. Linda Bluestein. And so that's the one I use for everybody and. And then when we're talking about flexibility, people are usually thinking muscles.

And um, it's actually gonna be so much more than that. It's gonna be muscles, it's gonna be, um, nerve tension, it's gonna be fascial tightness. Um, and there's definitely a neurological component as well. Um, the way that you will stretch as an unconscious person is very different than the way that you'll stretch when you are conscious.

Um, it's, you know, you can, you can look at studies that have been done on people and how flexible they are when they're, when they're not conscious. And it's, it's crazy. So we know that there is at least some sort of, um, neurological mental component that goes with it. I can't affect that, but what I can affect is all the other stuff.

And usually when people say that they're tight and we're talking about passive range of motion here, like they wanna go in the splits. And they'll say, I just can't get there. My [00:37:00] hamstrings are so tight. Or My calves are so tight. And then if I start to look at them and look through their entire posterior chain, which starts on their forehead, comes or, or some people say on the cheek, comes up and over the head all the way down the back of the body, all the way down the back of the leg.

And onto the bottom of the foot is one long line of connected tissue that has muscles that overlap and connect to each other. So if they are having trouble getting into the splits, it might not be there that their hamstrings are short. It might be that the tissue behind the, their neck is really, really tight, or their thoraco lumbar fascia right around their low and mid back is really, really tight.

And so, or they have, um. Really stuck, um, a sciatic nerve. And so we wanna learn how to glide that sciatic nerve and not just try to stretch it, which will just make the nerve angry, um, and then make you feel even tighter. So I will, I'll sort of go through an assessment with the, with the dancer to try to figure out where is it that's actually holding them back and can we start to release that.

And sometimes, you know, people are always like, oh, that was amazing. [00:38:00] Sometimes just releasing the back of their neck and doing some release work with balls, all of a sudden they can get much deeper into their splits. So you can pick. Spots all the way down the body and see where we can release it. But it's definitely not muscles and often muscles are gonna be the last thing that stretches.

Once we clean up all the other stuff that's kind of sticking and making it not smooth sailing, then we can start to get into muscle stretching. Now, when we talk about flexibility from, um, an extension point of view, when dancers come to me and say, I can hold my leg up with my hand, but as soon as I let go, um, it falls, um, that's a strength issue.

Does it mean that I want them to just practice holding their leg up with their hand let go and try to hold it for two seconds longer before it falls? No, usually for me, the first place I'll look is their standing leg strength and their standing leg strength will probably not be as, um. Either optimal or as turned on as it could be.

So there may be genuine weakness in the standing leg, or they may [00:39:00] just not be using it well. But once they get their standing leg working really well, don't even pay attention to their gesture leg. All of a sudden it's easier to hold their gesture leg because they're not putting most of their attention and trying to keep their, um, their themselves from falling down.

So when we're looking at active flexibility, it's going to be strength. First and foremost, though, it's gonna be strength of that standing leg. And then when we address strength for the extension, it's probably not going to look like, uh, a dance move. It's going to be strengthening in different ways so that the dance move is easier.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And that's why I love your Instagram account, which I'm sure we're gonna share later, but you share all these fascinating exercises that are way harder than they look and, and definitely are for very, very specific purposes, right? So it's, uh, you know, a lot of times people just wanna take more and more classes or do more and more of the same thing, but doing different things outside of class is really going to be the best way to accomplish those goals.

And are there any other tips for [00:40:00] stretching for both safety and long-term benefits? 

Jennifer Milner: Uh, for me, the first thing, first thing of the day, early days throughout the day, stretching that you do is gonna be more dynamic or active stretching. I say passive stretching, which is just sitting in the splits, for example.

Um, for the end of the day when the muscles are not only warmed up, but they are also not gonna be called on to work again for a while. Um, passive stretching has been shown, I think it's 30 seconds. If you hold a passive stretch for 30 seconds or longer, um, it can actually inhibit those muscles and shut them down for somewhere between studies show 30 minutes to three hours.

Um, so if you're sitting in your ichan splits, if you're sitting in your side splits before dance class starts and hanging out there and you're like, I'm stretching. And then you stand up and have to do fast CANDUs and you need your inner thighs, your body's gonna compensate with something. So we don't wanna do that passive stretching.

We wanna make sure that we are doing active stretching. So if a split is passive stretching, an active stretch is a groba [00:41:00] ma where you stretch the hamstring, but then you also work to bring it back down. And I would encourage people to get with their trainer, their coat, their Pilates teacher, whoever, to learn some active stretches.

It's part of the warmup. I make all my dancers learn and set up for themselves so that they can get those muscles active. And then as they go throughout the day, keep going them, push them a little bit further. Do active strength training when you're not in dance class to. Increase your flexibility, I promise it will.

And then save your, your passive stretches for the end of the day. And by passive stretches, I mean completely supported. I have never seen a reason to, um, include over splits or hyper splits or anything like that. If I see a leg up on something, there better be something underneath it that is supporting that leg and supporting the pelvis as well.

When we go into the hyper splits, we're really stretching that hip capsule and we're stretching out all the ligaments and some stuff that we really need, especially the front of that other hip. And I do have dancers who have such loose anterior capsules [00:42:00] now from that, that they feel their, their femoral head, their leg bone slipping forward as they're trying to dance.

And it's really hard to stabilize now. And they're looking at possibly needing surgery down the road. There's a whole slew of reasons. Uh, it decreases your proprioception. You can't, um. Access your, your muscles as fast. Um, that overstretching and sitting in those kind of hung in the air splits is, is not healthy.

Um, but bottom line, stretch the end of your range, but make sure it's supported and make sure that you're active stretching through it too. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, definitely. And then what about the. Dancers, of course are also humans. And of course, while we're focusing this episode on, on dancers for either humans that aren't dancers or for people who are, you know, they were dancers before but now they're post their dance career, there's been a lot of conversation about stretching and hypermobility, and there's some people who think that you should never, ever stretch if you're hypermobile.

And I disagree with that completely. Um, I think that it is important to [00:43:00] stretch even if you're hypermobile, but it's all in how you do it and paying attention to your body. Um, what advice would you give for people who are maybe not dancers, maybe they're. Old like me. Um, but they want to keep being physically active for as long as possible.

Do you have any 

Jennifer Milner: tips for us? Yeah, absolutely. Find someone to help you figure out stretches that are healthy and safe. And I do believe there's a difference between stretching and releasing muscles and that your body is probably craving both. So find someone that can help you with release techniques, like using a ball or using a, a raun or something to help release those muscles and knots.

Um, I also, but I also think that stretching is a really important component to anybody at any time of life. I no longer dance, of course, um, but I still stretch towards my splits. I don't really sit in my splits anymore, but I stretch towards them because it feels good on my muscles. But before I do that, I make sure I've done a lot of warmup and a lot of [00:44:00] active, uh, release work to be in the right place for it.

I think the thing that we get caught up on as a hypermobile population about stretching. You know, you go into yoga class and you look so cool, the teacher's like, oh, everybody watch her. She's amazing. And you're like, I don't really feel anything. Right? Because you're not stretching your muscles, you're just hanging in your joints.

And so we don't wanna hang more in our joints. We don't wanna push further into that passive connective tissue. But we do have tight muscles and often we have more tight muscles. Our calves can be like hard little rocks because we have such a long heel cord and we have so much sort of loose connective tissue that our calves are working twice as hard.

So you may have plantar fasciitis and be like, I don't know what to do. I do a calf stretch and it, I don't feel anything. Get with someone who can help you figure it out. You don't have to do it with them all the time. They can help you set up a home program and figure out with a qualified person how to do that release technique.

You absolutely have to keep moving. And that means trying to go through your full range of motion, whatever [00:45:00] your range of motion currently is, to make your joints feel healthy, to get that synovial fluid to them, to um, to be able to live your healthiest life. You definitely need safe and, um, scientifically sound si um, stretching.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Mm-hmm. I love it. Love it. And let's move on to advice for parents and teachers. Um, if you had just three minutes to talk to all the dance parents in the whole world, what would you say to them? 

Jennifer Milner: I would say two things. Um, first of all, you should believe your child. And I know that when you get going and you have multiple children, I had, I have two girls, they were both in dance and you're running and you're trying to get out the door and they're like, I don't feel good.

It's really easy to be like, ah, faker, you don't wanna go to, you know, because sometimes they are faking it, they don't wanna go to dance. But then you have to ask yourself why, especially if it's a, a, a, a regular thing. Um, I have one dancer who, [00:46:00] um, had panic attacks every time she went to on a certain day to dance class.

And it turned out that that day's dance teacher was very verbally abusive to the students in general. That was just her dance style or her, her teaching style. Um, and this dancer was, you know, the canary in the coal mine that was like, this does not feel good. I can't go, I can't take it. Um, I trained my daughters to say to me, I can't go and here's why.

And um, I need a mental health day. And I said, that's fine. I trust you when you say that. So believe your, believe your student. Listen to them when they tell you that it's hurting. Give them the tools to be able to have conversations with you. What does it feel like? How does it hurt? How long has it been hurting?

Where does it hurt? What are you doing when it hurts? So that you can help them figure out, oh, that's just a little muscle pain. I'm sore from working yesterday. Um, but believe your child and enter into that dialogue that takes a little bit longer, but is super helpful to them to grow up as autonomous dancers that can understand their [00:47:00] body and listen to what they're doing.

So that's my first thing. And my second thing is to trust your dance studio teacher. And that is a very loaded comment to make because, you know, we know there are a lot of dance teachers out there who are not great. And um, for that, I say if you don't trust your dance studio teacher. You probably should find another studio if you don't trust your, the teacher and the, the decisions that they make, the casting that they do, the way they teach, how they put kids on point or don't who they take to a festivals, whatever.

If you don't trust that, you are certainly welcome to enter into conversation with them. And if you feel dissatisfied with that, if you disagree strongly, or if you suspect that they're not being, they're not treating your child well, then set aside the awards the studio has won or how famous they are on Instagram or whatever, and find a safe place for your, for your student to be so believe your child.

And trust your studio slash find a studio you could trust. Yeah. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. I think that's so [00:48:00] important because it, it also depends on the person's goals, right? Yeah. So if a, if, if your dancer is dancing for, for fun and they're not planning on having a professional career, then that's gonna look very different than if somebody, you know, really is hoping to turn this into their profession.

So, uh, I love those tips for parents. And then what about teachers? How can they best support hypermobile dancers without overemphasizing their hypermobility? 

Jennifer Milner: It's really hard because you, you know, you have 20 people in a class and you can't just slow the class down and stop for them. But, um. I would encourage the teachers to get to know dancers at the beginning of the year, especially if it's a new group for them and, and say to them, Hey, I notice your, your knees locked back a lot.

Has anybody ever worked with you on that? Um, where have your other teachers told you to put your heels? Um, I notice you struggle in the center with your depay, but at the bar, your depay is totally fine. Let's talk about your standing leg and let's see what we need to do to help you with that. [00:49:00] So, uh, just I would encourage them to look at hypermobile dancers as.

Just another facet of technique to be addressed. Just like all the other dancers who are not hypermobile, uh, keep in mind that hypermobile dancers are exponentially more likely to be neurodivergent. So you will see more, um, learning disabilities such as, um, dyslexia, dyscalculia, um, autism, uh, A DHD, things like that.

So you may, um, or I actually encourage you to expand the way in which you teach and make sure that you demonstrate the conversation. Talk through the com, demonstrate the combination, talk through the combination, use lots of different ways to help dancers learn, um, in different ways. And, um, I also encourage you to keep learning and keep growing.

Um, I, I, I put together a whole workshop on how to work with a hypermobile dancer in the dance studio because I feel like there's a lot of dance teachers out there that don't. Know and wish that they did, and I think that's the best place [00:50:00] to be, is to say, I see it. I recognize, how do I do it? Let's figure out what to do.

Keep looking on YouTube, keep researching, find people you trust and, and talk to the dancers and get their feedback. And if they say, I don't feel it, don't say, oh, I've told you 10 times. That means I have to tell you 11 times. But I have to say it differently the 11th time in order for them to, to get it.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And, and that's such important information because Dan's teachers, they see a lot of bodies. So they may very well be the first person to notice that somebody is hypermobile. They see, they see bodies, they see them, you know, if it's a ballet class, they're seeing them in a leotard and tights. And so they have this oppor, you know, a really unique opportunity and a really important role that, uh, that they play, that they can really make a difference in a dancer's life if they can.

Help them get stronger and point them to resources like you and, and things like that. So, um, so that's really, really great information. Um, what about this trend that we're seeing towards more acro and even contortion in dance today? We talked about [00:51:00] this a little bit at the beginning. Um, what is your take on that trend?

Jennifer Milner: Well, you know, I, I work with a lot of competition dancers and I understand that it's part of life. Um, and I see the competition world say, Hey, we don't need the tricks. We don't need the acro. You can cut back on it. And yet they still get rewarded for it in their scores when they do it. Um. The trend I'm seeing right now is that there's more acro in the younger dancers in the mini, in the junior rooms, and there's less of it in the teen and even less of it in the senior room.

And so I feel like it's being used in the early years to sort of cover up. We don't have a lot of technique to offer 'cause we just started dancing, but we're gonna do stuff that looks cool and then it's kind of fading away as, and, and being choreographed less as they get older, which is definitely a great place to start.

Um, I, I do see the need sometimes for acro or contortion in professional pieces, um, if it's a really necessary part of the [00:52:00] story. Like if you're really trying to do something crazy and weird and heartbreaking or whatever. Um, I get it. I also. Hope that if it's being put in there, it's being put in there in a really healthy way.

You know, the, the contortionists with circuses and Cirque Soleil and such, they spend hours every day working on their body and keeping it healthy and safe to be able to do these things. And they have a huge support staff behind them. So if you're gonna put that sort of thing in your choreography, you wanna make sure that the dancer is getting that much support as well, and that it's something that they can do eight shows a week and not just once really cool in the dance studio.

You know, I've had, um, a dancer, I had a 12-year-old with a, a ver vertebral stress fracture because she had the crazy bendy back and she just kept doing it because the, the looked so cool and they put it many, many times in her solo and her group dances and all of that stuff. Um, and now they understand, oh, we can't just like, [00:53:00] play with that because she was out for, for some months.

Um, so I do think that I see it and I understand it, and I hope that it becomes. One tool, um, in telling the story rather than the thing that says, look at how cool this dancer is, because we want it to inform the dance, but not necessarily be the dance. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, 

Jennifer Milner: I think 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: that's really good. And when it comes to like this 12-year-old, that's something that, you know, is going to be with her forever too.

I mean, it's not like it's, I mean, obviously there's healing that happens, but when we, when we get really, really serious injuries like that, even after the healing has happened, there's potential ramifications down the road. So I think it's just so important for, for people to be really, really thoughtful about all those things.

Okay. So let's talk now about, um, careers. And I'm really, really curious this, I was dying to ask you this question because I know you work with a ton of pre-professional dancers [00:54:00] and some of them can be so incredibly talented and I'm dying to know what do you think are the most common reasons? Why pre-professional dancers do not transition into professional careers?

Jennifer Milner: Uh, in general, uh, I think there's lots of reasons. I think burnout is a really big one. Um, we see so many of the really young, amazing things that get all the young dance awards. Um, you know, the promising best artist soon to be a trailbla, you know, whatever the awards are called, um, at 9, 10, 11 years old and.

And everybody's like, oh, wow, that's gonna be, that's gonna be crazy. But instead of saying, that will be amazing here. They say, that is amazing. Let's do more of it. And seeing those bodies, when I see dancers, uh, especially hypermobile dancers who are at that space stage, um, I think, man, where are they gonna be in three years?

Mm-hmm. And so sometimes it's mental burnout. And I've [00:55:00] seen several really promising dancers drop out around age 14, 15 because of the mental burnout. And sometimes it's physical burnout. When a 10-year-old says, mom, it just hurts to walk down the stairs every day. I'm like, that's not, that's not normal.

Right? No. And we should not normalize that. Right. So I think burnout is a big one. And I think that, um, to combat that, we just need to get more support in the dance studios for both physical and mental health. And we need to, um. As a community that consumes art, we need to change our expectations and say, wow, that's a really beautiful dance done by a 10-year-old, at a very age appropriate developmental level, rather than wow that that 10-year-old can do all the same tricks that, you know, Tyler Peck can do.

Well, she shouldn't be able to, and something is being sacrificed in order to, to be able to do those things right. So we wanna be able to have more real realistic expectations of what we're asking for them. And the second reason I [00:56:00] see, um, sometimes it's just dumb luck, right? That you yeah. Get a job or you don't get a job, you know, somebody, uh, not that you're not qualified, but, um, I remember a year or two ago, Pittsburgh Ballet Theater did, um, open auditions for women and 800 women showed up.

800 women flew across the country to audition for Pittsburgh Ballet Theater, and they had one contract. So, so there's lots of really great people that come in the room. Oh my gosh. And you're, I mean, you could have been number two and you could be really talented, but number two didn't get a contract. So I think sometimes it's dumb luck.

And when we get into those situations, what is going to help you is going back to what we talked about earlier, knowing yourself and the dancers that succeed and thrive may not be in the fanciest and flashiest companies, but they know what they love to do. They know what they're good at and they pursue that.

And they say, yeah, I could go after this, but, and it would be [00:57:00] more prestigious, but I wouldn't be doing the choreography I love and it would kind of hurt my body. And that's not really who I am. So I'm gonna pursue this because I think that what I have to say matches with what that company is trying to say.

And I think the best thing that you can do to just combat. Dumb luck is to know who you are and know what you have to offer when you walk in the room. Mm-hmm. And there are companies that I would've auditioned for, um, as a young ballet dancer that I, if I had, had the chance, I would've auditioned for. And there's no way they would've hired me.

I just wasn't right for them. And I would've done better to be like, what are the 10 companies that I could really see myself at? Right. And, and, and putting my time and effort into that. So, um, I think luck and. And not having a strong sense of who you are and what you have to offer is, is gonna be another thing that kind of keeps people from jobs.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. Uh, 800 people for one contract, that's, yeah. I mean, we, we all know that it's [00:58:00] really, really tough out there. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a sobering statistic for sure. Um, what about people who are dancing for fun or they're not pursuing a professional career? I, I had a, a patient once who was like in her thirties and she already had foot pain and she was taking adult ballet and she was like, and I'm gonna go on point.

And I'm like, why? I mean, you're an adult dancer, you're just doing it for fun. Like, to me it was, you know, she said, well, 'cause everyone else is gonna do it. And we talked about it and what her goals were and she ultimately decided not to go on point. And I think that was definitely the right call. But in terms of, you know, younger dancers who may or may not be thinking of pursuing a professional career, do you think that they still should go on point?

Do you think that they should be pushing for things like the splits? 

Jennifer Milner: I think it depends on what their goals are. I'm never gonna tell a dancer not to strive to go on point. Um, and I'm never gonna tell them, don't work on your flexibility. Um, if the splits are hugely uncomfortable and you don't have anywhere near the range of motion to [00:59:00] accomplish it, it's gonna take a lot of work.

And are you willing to put all of that work into it to accomplish something that you don't really need? Now? If you really want it, that's fine. It's great to have goals, it's great to go for it. Um, and the same thing is gonna be true of point. If you are a recreational dancer and you are only dancing through high school, or you're only really dancing, um, in a studio until you can audition for your drill team in high school and then you're just gonna do drill.

Um, do you need to go on point? If you want to. Go for it. As long as you have the strength and the range of motion with your foot, that's great. But otherwise I don't see a reason to push it, especially if you don't want to. Um, if you're an adult dancer and you have the strength, and you have the training and the technique, that's great.

You know, do it. Make sure you're working with a really good teacher and that you're working really healthily. It's hard to find an adult who takes up dance, uh, later in life who doesn't have foot issues. So dance can be a really great way to force you to confront those foot issues [01:00:00] and perhaps you can, and get stronger and deal with all of that stuff, and then you'll be ready to go on point.

But I think the most important question is why. And if you're not really sure, but you feel that fomo or you feel like, well, they told me I had to, well then let's, let's talk about that and maybe, maybe find a different studio. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: And what about competitions? How do you think that those shape dancers, their, their artistry and their train and their training, um, how much of that is positive?

How much of that is negative? These 

Jennifer Milner: are all very deep questions. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: I saved the best for you, 

Jennifer Milner: Jen, I think. I think you did it. Thanks. Thanks for, thanks for saving the hard ones. You're welcome. I think competitions are both, um, are both helpful and, um, a challenge in a dancer's life. Um, at a young age, uh, many of my competition dancers have been on stage more by the time they're 10 than I was by the time I was 20.

And so they have gotten a lot more comfortable being on stage. And so [01:01:00] in that regard, they, they, they don't have that fear that they would have to face later in life. So they feel a lot more comfortable. Competitions are also really great. Most of my dancers at a younger age, they love competitions because it's an excuse to hang out in a hotel for a weekend and, you know, eat junk food with their friends and stay up super late and wear really cool makeup.

And they have this, it's like sleepaway camp, right? But for dancers. Mm-hmm. And they have this great bonding and they have a lot of fun and they go on stage and do these really hard, amazing dance numbers and get this really great energy from the crowd. So for all of those things, I think it's really. I think it's really helpful.

And then also there's, you have more, um, one-on-one time with the teacher. Um, we didn't do private lessons in, in my age, in my day. Uh, they just weren't a thing. You got your, your lessons, you got your training from your, your group classes and if you had to have a private, there was something wrong. Like you really needed something to be fixed to like, right, to get caught up.

But these days people get privates regularly to work on their [01:02:00] variations or on their solos for competitions. So it's wonderful to have that one-on-one time, take a variation and work on it for eight months and get really good at it and get into the nuance and all of that. Um, the flip side of that is some of that time could be spent in their technique class.

And I see competition studios that end up having to cancel a lot of group technique classes to make room for more rehearsals for their pieces. And I have dancers that are in 12, 13, 15 different pieces. Um. In one year. And so they're going to a lot of rehearsals and they're doing a lot of stuff that gets them ready for that specific choreography, but isn't necessarily giving them the technique that they need to be able to adapt to slightly different choreography or to do something that's a little bit harder to understand the why of how they're doing that choreography.

And I also think that we were losing, and not just because of competitions, I think we're losing some of our, um, of, of, of learning how to, of learning the artistry [01:03:00] in dance. It was something that was handed down in dance class and the only way I learned a variation was from someone who had performed the variation.

There was no YouTube and Right. Um, there was no, you know, way to just go watch something really quick. There were no competitions, um, really, except for. If I learned a variation, I knew that variation, I understood that variation. I knew the story behind it, and whoever was explaining it to me was explaining to me why the hands went this way, what the reasoning was behind it, all of that sort of thing.

So there was, uh, there was a degree of artistry that was being taught in class just because it was being handed from one person to the next. And now, um, my dance students know so many more variations than I did, but they're learning them straight from YouTube and they're not being taught the, the artistry that goes with it.

And if they're learning it in class, maybe they're learning it from a teacher who learned it from YouTube and is passing it on to them because teachers have to know a bunch of different variations to be able to hand out to all the, the [01:04:00] students who are, um, who are competing. And so I feel like the artistry that gets handed down is smile here, work in anguish here, if it's competition, if it's a contemporary, you know, that sort of thing.

Rather than letting the dancer find for themselves what that artistry is gonna be and what they're trying to say. And when dancers ask me to coach their, um, their cleanup, their solos for them, they'll do a contemporary piece. And I'm like, what's it about? And they're like, I dunno. I'm like, well then why are you on stage?

Like, whatcha trying to say who cares what the choreographer thought? Whatcha trying to say? Um, and so I feel like we lose a little bit of that because we're working so much in the competitions. But I do think that there is value from, um, the group experience that is to be had and from the, um, the knowledge that they gain of being self-confident at an earlier age in front of a large group of people.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, those are such great points, and this has been such a great conversation. I could talk to you for two more hours, but I am cognizant of the time. [01:05:00] Um, and so I just have a couple of quick, uh, closing questions here. Um, if you could go back in time, what would you tell your younger 

Jennifer Milner: self? If I could go back in time, I would tell myself that it is okay to fail.

I, as a dancer was very afraid of failure and I, I wouldn't practice my forte turns because I didn't want other people to see me doing forte turns because I couldn't do forte turns. And so I never got really good at Forte turns because I wouldn't practice them. Um, and I think, I think it's really important for dancers to understand no one's gonna be perfect.

No one's gonna dance anything perfectly. And it's okay to not understand something, to need to ask a question, um, to say, this is what it feels like in my body. Is that right? Or this doesn't feel good, is that right? Um, to put myself out there as who I am rather than who I thought they wanted me to be. Um, and if they didn't like who I was, [01:06:00] it would've felt like a failure, but that would've been okay because I was presenting my, presenting myself.

So I, I always encouraged dancers to know, and I wish I had known that it's really okay to fail and that that's part of it. And when you're failing, you're just learning another way not to do it, and you'll 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: find one that works. And is there anything else that you've done in the past that you would do differently now?

I would warm up.

I love it. I love it. I have such 

Jennifer Milner: a distinct memory from being 13 years old and, uh, the director walking into the studio and saying, all right, have you warmed up? And I was like, why? We're about to start dancing. I warm up while I'm dancing. And of course now I'm like, don't do it. I know I would've warmed up.

I know. Taking care of my body preemptively. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yep, yep. I made that exact same mistake when I was at uc, Irvine. I would just race into class and, you know, just I, that's how I had some bad hamstring injuries when I was in college. Mm-hmm. But [01:07:00] yeah, no, no, uh, proper warmup for sure. And then what about, um, experiences from your own career as a dancer that most shaped your current work with hypermobile dancers?

Can you identify any specific experiences? 

Jennifer Milner: I think my experiences were not knowing that I was hypermobile and thinking, well, I'm just a person who sprains her ankles all the time, and my shoulder's go in and outta the socket. It's a cool party trick. I can show you if you wanna see it, you know, like that kind of person.

Um, sure my back hurts all the time, but then I go to the chiropractor and he fixes it and I feel better. Um, and not really being able to connect all of those dots together and understand that there was a bigger piece of it. And then not being able to connect the other dots, which was the other connective tissue parts.

Um. And so I think that that has really shaped me as a practitioner in wanting to see what other stars are in the sky and try to put together the whole constellation rather than, than just going, this is the one thing. And I'm like, okay, but let's look, let me, let me get a [01:08:00] telescope real quick and see what else is out there and let's link it all together.

When they say my knee hurts, I'm like, well, how's your ankle? Mm-hmm. Right. Oh, it's really loose. Oh, wow. What a coincidence. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So that's, that I think has definitely informed and, and, and made me more generous and trying to teach them to be generous with themselves because I was not generous with myself when these things would happen.

And I'd be like, come on, suck it up. It's fine. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right. And if you have a final message to leave with our listeners about, uh, this topic and or a hypermobility hack to share with us, that would be a great thing to, to end on. And then of course, we'll talk about where people can find, find you online, uh, as well.

Jennifer Milner: Uh, wow. A, a hypermobility hack Final thought. Um. For me, it's all about strength. And the hack is, um, be gentle with yourself emotionally. Be patient with yourself, trust yourself and, and build your strength. Your strength is not gonna take away your flexibility. Your strength is gonna make you [01:09:00] able to access your flexibility more.

So be kind to yourself and let yourself get stronger. You a hundred percent deserve it. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Um, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. I know that you're super busy. Can you, before you go, let us know if you have any special projects you're working on and where people can find you online?

Jennifer Milner: I. You can find me online@jenniferhyenmilner.com and my online website, you can obviously access me, but I also have an entire platform there within it. That's an online learning platform that you can also find at Dr. Linda Bluestein. I have several online on-demand workshops, um, including the, the workshop I mentioned earlier that's about, uh, Pilates and, uh, the hypermobility in the dance studio that's specific for dance teachers.

And, uh, a workshop on thriving outside of the dance studio. Um, for dancers to be able to pull together all the stuff that's gonna make them healthy. We cover nutrition, we cover mental health, strength training, planning the season, like [01:10:00] all of those things. Um, and Dr. Bluestein, as always, is a valuable contributor there to more than one of those workshops, so you'll always be able to find those workshops online.

And you can find me at Jennifer Milner also on, uh, Instagram. Those are the two best ways to find me. 

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay, great. Yeah, and I love doing those workshops with you. I know you always put in so much time in crafting exactly what you want to cover and really looking at all these different perspectives. And it's so great because you often have dancers, um, come in as models so you can actually demonstrate things on them, um, hypermobile dancers.

And so I think it's just really great that you have this platform now where people can go and purchase things on demand and, oh, I wanna learn about this, or, I think I really need this. Um, so I'm, I'm honored to be a part of some of those programs and, and, uh, always, always love to do projects with you. So thank you so much.

Oh, thank you for including me in, in some of those. And, um, yeah, and I just loved our conversation today, [01:11:00] so, so very much. And, um, I know that this is gonna air, um, after the I Adams conference, but I look forward to seeing you there For sure. Me too. I can't wait.

Well, I always love having Jennifer Milner back on Vindy bodies and thank you. Thank you. Thank you to Jen for taking the time to chat with me. I really, really love this conversation and I think it's going to be so helpful to so many dancers, dance teachers, and everyone who cares about the help of dancers.

Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of The Bendy Bodies. With the Hypermobility MD Podcast, I have lots of other resources, including my newsletter, the Bendy Bulletin. Check that out on substack@hypermobilitymd.substack.com. You can help us spread the word about joint hypermobility and related disorders by leaving a review and sharing the podcast.

This really helps raise awareness about these complex conditions. Did you know that I also offer one-on-one support for both clients and healthcare professionals? Whether you're living with [01:12:00] hypermobility or caring for people who are, I've got your back. Check out my coaching and mentorship options on the services page of my website@hypermobilitymd.com.

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